Editing Talk:! Switch

== Picture. ==

The picture should be replaced with the new super Mario bros one.
[[User:Goombob|I am goombob and I love paper mario games]] ([[User talk:Goombob|talk]]) 14:07, 18 May 2013 (EDT)Goombob
:Why? I see no problem with it. {{User|Yoshi876}}

== It ==

would be better if they changed the title to ! Switch, just like Question Mark Block to [[? Block]].
[[User:Unshy Guy|Unshy Guy]] ([[User talk:Unshy Guy|talk]]) 20:11, 17 November 2013 (EST)

== Mistake, maybe? ==

There is also an ! switch in NSMB in the final boss fight. [[User:Killer|Killer]] ([[User talk:Killer|talk]]) 02:53, October 12, 2019 (EDT)
:The switch has a skull on it and is clearly distinct from the ! Switches that appear in normal gameplay. Not really seeing any reason for it to be put here. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:04, October 12, 2019 (EDT)

== Name ==
{{talk}}
While I don't know about licensed guides for later games, these things to seem to be fairly consistently just called "switch" in firsthand sources in both English and Japanese. Should we move this in light of that? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:50, April 11, 2020 (EDT)
:It's called "! Switch" in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' manual, though... {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 20:20, April 11, 2020 (EDT)
::"! Switch block," actually. JP version of the manual uses a sprite to represent its name instead XD. Regardless, YIDS and YNI's manuals just say "Switch," and they come later. NSMB seems to be the exception, not the rule. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:33, April 11, 2020 (EDT)
:::I think the group in ''New Super Mario Bros.'' was a way to bridge inconsistent terminology and say, "hey, Switch Block refers to this object type in general, but going forward, that's probably the last time you'll see it since we want to use unique names for P/!/? Switches," and the <tt>switch</tt> file in ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' at least contains <tt>switch_bikkuri</tt>, <tt>switch_hatena</tt>, and <tt>switch_P</tt> models (Bowser's axe and switch combo is the <tt>boss_koopa_ax</tt> model in the separate <tt>switch_koopa</tt> file), but in regards to ! Switch in particular: ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' (retroactively?) refers to it as 「ビックリスイッチ」 (''Bikkuri Suicchi'', Surprise Switch) for ''Super Mario World'', ''Super Mario 64'', ''New Super Mario Bros.'', ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'', and ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:38, April 12, 2020 (EDT)
This page should not be merged with the [[Switch]] page as there are a wide variety of different switches including [[P Switch]]es and [[? Switch]]es. And then, there's an exclamation mark on it so, for me, it's called ! Switch. [[User:1JUST1|1JUST1]]
:The problem is most games, including the most recent appearances, just call these "switch." In light of that, this seems to generally be officially considered the "main" switch. Since "switch" itself is fine as a disambig page, this should probably be moved to "switch (object)," since the other objects simply called "switch" are limited to one series. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:32, June 15, 2020 (EDT)
::In Super Mario Maker 1/2, they are only P-Switches and these are calld "P-Switches" and not "Switches", so, who knows. But if we move everything, the page will be very big and so we will need to do some galleries and maybe sub-galleries. {{unsigned|1JUST1}}
:::You're missing my point completely. This would still be a separate page, it would just have a different name. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:12, June 15, 2020 (EDT)
::::I think it would be wise to keep it as ! Switch.{{unsigned|HEROWALUIGI}}
:::::The "! Switch" name actually ''is'' legitimate; the name appears in both the NSMB2 and NSMBU Prima guides. I think it would be wise to just downplay the discussion for the time being now that we have solid proof of the current name. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:20, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
::::::That settles that {{User:HEROMARIO/sig}} 17:21, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::Except no it doesn't; manuals are at a higher naming priority than PRIMA guides. Manuals for ''Yoshi'' games consistently just say "switch." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:36, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::Yes....But we should take translation into account. What does the Japanese name call it? {{User:HEROMARIO/sig}} 17:38, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::"Switch." The English word. That's their manual name there too. Some lesser-priority guides say "Bikkuri Switch," but again, lesser priority than packaged or digital manuals. Believe me, I searched up a whole lot of scans and compiled them in the Niol section of this page just a month or two ago. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:59, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::There's also source priority exceptions, and I'd say this case is worthy of it since we have three Prima guides that consistently call this "! Switch". Though you're free to create a proposal for that. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 18:04, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::There's ''also'' the fact the PM games have consistently just said "switch" ''in-game'', which is the ultimate priority. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:05, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::While it's definitely an ultimate priority, I still wouldn't say it's absolute. Plus, it's more of a common name, and we tend to favor proper names more. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 15:33, June 29, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Problem is, from what I can tell, it is commonly used ''as'' a proper name, even in cases where other switch types exist. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:51, June 29, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::::As far as I know, that never happened in-game. I'm somewhat reminded by the Mini Goomba case, where there technically isn't an in-game reference as of yet but it's been used consistently in all guides since ''New Super Mario Bros.'' I'm with Toadette the Achiever and leaning towards source priority in this case. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:56, June 30, 2020 (EDT)

== Merge Purple Switch here, split Cap Switch, or both ==
{{TPP}}
A month ago, there was [[Talk:Purple Switch#Merge to ! Switch (proposal edition)|a proposal]] that attempted to merge the [[Purple Switch]] from ''Super Mario 64'' with this article. It ended with no consensus, with opposers arguing that they had a unique name, design, and function from the Cap Switches, which ''are'' currently merged here.

Several counterarguments were made against these points, most of which opposers didn't even acknowledge the existence of until ''after'' the proposal was already over. If you missed the proposal or need a refresher:
*The name "Purple Switch" (given by Nintendo Power) is outdated. The switch is not purple in ''Super Mario 64 DS''.
*Guide names do not necessarily dictate that we split things (e.g. [[Talk:Purple Klaptrap|Purple Klaptrap]], [[Nep-Enut|Submarine Nep-Enut]]).
*''Paper Mario'' has several differently designed switches with a "!" on them, including ones with the standard design, circular green ones like in ''Super Mario RPG'', and multiple others, and none of them are split from this article. Additionally, even the standard dome-shaped switches do not have a consistent function, doing everything from lowering staircases to unfurling bridges. ''Super Paper Mario'' similarly has a red octagonal floor switch with a "!" on it in Yold Ruins.

Another relevant point I made after the fact is that Purple Switches ''do not have'' a consistent function at all. They spawn wooden block platforms, they invert the triangles in [[Rainbow Ride]], they turn slopes into stairs in the Bowser levels, and one opens a gate in [[Bob-omb Battlefield]]. That last one isn't timed, so you can't even cling to that as a consistent effect they have.

In other words, this is a second attempt to merge Purple Switch, but it also includes options to split Cap Switch. Unlike the Purple Switches, they ''do'' have a unique, consistent function - enabling cap powers. This, to me, makes the Cap Switches more worthy of being considered the "variant" than the Purple Switches. The Cap Switches may be based on the original ''SMW'' design, but that just makes them [[Red Spike Top]] 2.0 if anything.

'''Proposer''': {{User|7feetunder}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 26, 2021, 23:59 GMT

====Merge Purple Switch====
#{{User|7feetunder}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per before.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preferred option '''if''' the resulting Cap Switch article wouldn't jointly cover ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario 64 DS''; otherwise, see below.

====Split Cap Switch====
#{{User|7feetunder}} Per proposal.

====Merge Purple Switch ''and'' split Cap Switch====
#{{User|7feetunder}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per. Also, considering the "item switch" name, we may want to see if that terminology's ever used for SMW materials.
#{{User|Swallow}} My prefered choice here.
#{{User|Tails777}} The way I see it, Purple Switches are basically just normal switches; you step on them and they activate something, just like typical PM switches (or any switch for that matter). Cap Switches, on the other hand, have one specific use and that's to activate the various colored ! Blocks. They're not like the average switch, which activates something relevant to where the switch itself is located. So I feel Cap Switches can be split, but Purple Switches can be merged.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per all.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Purple Switches are named generically in Japanese (matching earlier appearances of ! Switch), seem to be named somewhat generically in internal assets (to correct myself, "han" isn't diminutive of "hatena" since it's also applied to lift objects in source), better fits along the lines of ! Switches in most games, and the name just doesn't look to be used in any other sources. While Cap Switches (which do have a unique name in ''Super Mario 64'') are similar to the ''Super Mario World'' ones, I'm all for it as a special article that also covers the symbol-flipped ''Super Mario 64 DS'' equivalent, and subsequently it may be better to do this with the colored Cap Blocks as well in the spirit of [[Talk:Keronpa Ball|other]] [[Template talk:SM64 Levels|proposal]]s, per my thoughts below.
#{{User|OhoJeeOnFire}} Yeah, the cap switches are different and the purple switch is exactly the same as a normal switch.

====Do nothing====
#{{User|Hewer}} These switch proposals are really starting to confuse me. The article itself seems to say that Cap Switch is just SM64's name for the ! Switch, and the Purple Switch is a variant with a different name, appearance, and function, just like all the other variants of objects and enemies we have split. The name not being very good and the item having multiple functions doesn't at all point to it being the same as the ! Switch. Also, per the opposition of the last proposal.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} "Purple Switch" is still a valid name for this switch in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' as its hue is still in the violet range; main reason this article is split is its unique name alongside its separate functionality from the Cap Switch, both functions we take into account rather than list them separately. Plus I think a proposal to split the Cap Switch is a worse decision than merely merging the Purple Switch as it splits hairs as they do retain their domed design from prior games.
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.

====Comments====
@Hewer: "The article itself seems to say that Cap Switch is just SM64's name for the ! Switch." Did you just cite the ''wiki itself'' as evidence as if it were an official source? That's not a valid argument. You can't just claim that they are the same and should remain merged purely because "the article says so", especially when part of the proposal's point is ''challenging'' that statement. That's like citing Wikipedia. This wiki also claimed that [[? Mushroom]] and [[Reverse Mushroom]] were [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Items#Reverse Mushroom| the same thing]] for the longest time, but that doesn't make it true. You're also reciting the same "name, design, and function" mantra as before when none of those things actually set Purple Switches apart (Cap Switches also have a unique name, and from a higher-priority source at that, and ! Switches don't have a consistent design or function). {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:22, November 12, 2021 (EST)
:I never said the wiki was an official source; in case it wasn't obvious, I was checking the article for information because I haven't played enough of SM64 to encounter any Cap Switches and am not aware of any differences they may have. Given neither the article we're trying to improve nor either of the proposals have explained at all how the Cap Switch is different from the ! Switch beyond 'oh it has a name', I somewhat doubt that there are enough differences to split it. Also, the reason I was talking about the name, appearance and function thing was because that's essentially the basis of every split and merge on the wiki. If they have a different name, a different function and a different appearance, chances are they're different. Purple Switches differ in all three of these aspects (including in a game where ! Switches also appear, so ! Switches differing between games is not relevant). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:52, November 13, 2021 (EST)
::Cap Switches are dedicated to activating blocks containing the different cap power-ups. Purple switches activate lots of different things depending on the location used. That's the main difference between them. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 07:00, November 13, 2021 (EST)
<gallery>
RainbowRideTriangle.png
Crystal Palace.png
</gallery>
::Don't look too different to me. Also, as I've said before, their near universal functionality is how the !-marked "switches" act in SMW2. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:25, November 13, 2021 (EST)
:::That comparison is between different games. When the Purple Switch and ! Switch appear in the same game as each other, they look and function differently to each other. It's somewhat comparable to [[Green Pokey]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:46, November 14, 2021 (EST)
::::Neither "Purple Switch" nor "Cap Switch" are officially labeled "! Switch," by the way. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:52, November 15, 2021 (EST)

:I was going to say that Cap Switch is too similar to the original ''Super Mario World'' depiction of ! Switch, but then I remembered ''Super Mario 64 DS'' and how the remaining red one was changed to a ? Switch with the same function. If a Cap Switch split option passes, can we expect it to cover the red ? Switch from ''Super Mario 64 DS'' as well, keeping coverage in a more convenient spot? It would align with the proposal [[Template talk:SM64 Levels|here]], although that was regarding courses, not objects. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:58, November 15, 2021 (EST)
::That's still technically the same thing, so I would think so. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 13:18, November 15, 2021 (EST)
:::It's directly called "? Switch" in-game though...unlike Cap Switch, which is just "[generic color identifier] switch." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:49, November 15, 2021 (EST)
::::''Super Mario 64'''s ! Switch is called both the proper name "Cap Switch" (アイテムスイッチ) and generic name "switch" (スイッチ) in-game. I think keeping the ''Super Mario 64'' Cap Switch and ''Super Mario 64 DS'' ? Switch together matches our current coverage better, though. It makes linkage across the wiki cleaner since they're exactly the same as before, just with the symbol arbitrarily swapped around, and we can simply use <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> for the ''Super Mario 64'' / ''Super Mario 64 DS'' section in the ! Switch and ? Switch articles, respectively. Otherwise, I don't really see the point in splitting Cap Switch if the ''Super Mario 64 DS'' equivalent gets to stay in the ? Switch article. For that matter, supposing Cap Switch splits, we can also give the same treatment to "Cap Block" (アイテムブロック). Same thing happened there, with the unique different-colored ! Blocks being replaced by red ? Blocks. It would make describing them in level articles and the like more concise. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:40, November 15, 2021 (EST)
:::::I ''would'' like to get away from using the symbol as the sole determinant, ''Sunshine''{{'}}s coin-spawning switches need to go somewhere. Maybe at some point we could consider splitting ! Switch and generic switches, some of which have the ! symbol. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:10, November 15, 2021 (EST)
::::::I'll take note to look into whether there's a unique name for those in one of the ''Sunshine'' guides at some point. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:52, November 17, 2021 (EST)