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| If this proposal passes, will we add an infobox for the ''[[Captain N: The Game Master]]'' episodes? [[User:Maw-Ray Master|Maw-Ray Master]] ([[User talk:Maw-Ray Master|talk]]) 20:45, March 25, 2025 (EDT) | | If this proposal passes, will we add an infobox for the ''[[Captain N: The Game Master]]'' episodes? [[User:Maw-Ray Master|Maw-Ray Master]] ([[User talk:Maw-Ray Master|talk]]) 20:45, March 25, 2025 (EDT) |
| : why wouldn't we. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 22:31, March 25, 2025 (EDT) | | : why wouldn't we. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 22:31, March 25, 2025 (EDT) |
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| ===On the leading "Princess" for Peach/Daisy/Rosalina, and/or lackthereof===
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| Brace yourselves--this is gonna be a long one.
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| In July of last year, jan Misali created a proposal to [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|remove the leading "Princess" from the article name for "Princess Daisy"]]. This failed 15-18, as people were interested in a proposal to move Peach alongside this. In November of last year, jan Misali created a follow-up proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"|do exactly this]], which failed again; among other concerns regarding redirects, most of the support was split between moving both Peach and Daisy to their Princess-less counterparts, and just moving Daisy, leaving the opposition in the lead. Guess third time's the charm.
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| The question is simple; do we remove "Princess" from the names of the [[Princess Peach]] and [[Princess Daisy]] articles? Time and time again, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|we've removed or truncated]] [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|full names or particles]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|to more common names]]. However, for whatever reason, the "Princess" particles for Peach and Daisy stick, despite Nintendo being very hit-or-miss about how required these are, ''especially'' for Daisy, whose "Princess, despite never doing anything royal outside of her debut" status has been acknowledged, officially, multiple times.
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| To recap the cases in favor of these renames for people that didn't read those first two proposals, the case for Daisy in particular is very strong, so we'll start with her. Simply put, Nintendo so rarely calls her by the name of "Princess Daisy" that it's starting to become a surprise when they ''do'' call her that in things like [[:File:Hot Wheels Princess Daisy Character Car Packaging.png|HotWheels character cars]]. To re-iterate a point made in jan Misali's original proposal, the count of times where Daisy is overtly referred to as "Princess Daisy" outside of manuals or other such paratexts can be counted on two hands, and even then, only barely; once in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Print World]]'' (which also erroneously calls Peach "Daisy" at one point), [[Mario Superstar Baseball|the two]] [[Mario Super Sluggers|baseball games]] and ''[[Fortune Street]]'' interchange "Daisy" and "Princess Daisy" in dialogue but all UI uses just "Daisy", ''[[Super Mario Run]]'' being in a similar boat but with in-game descriptions for [[Super Mario Run#Remix 10|Remix 10]] instead of dialogue, and ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]'', where Palutena calls her that. In every other case, including her own debut game, she is generally called "Daisy".
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| For Daisy, there is also the strange asterisk that is her [[Princess Daisy (film character)|film equivalent]], but given the context of the plot of the film itself--that Daisy is unaware of her own royal status for the bulk of the film, and is simply referred to as just "Daisy" for most of it, we personally think it's fair to move her to "Daisy (film character) and add a Full Name parameter to clarify her "Princess Daisy" title she has towards the end. That being said, [[:File:SMBFilmCard11.jpg|even her own official trading card just calls her Daisy]], and apparently the "Princess Daisy" title only gets dropped on the back of "Sad Goodbyes", which we lack an image for.
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| The case for Princess Peach is less strong, partially thanks to the release of ''[[Princess Peach: Showtime!]]'', a game in 2024 that makes rather overt use of "Princess Peach"; however, it is worth noting that Nintendo still does play rather fast-and-loose with the "Princess" particle for her as well. Most spinoffs will truncate the "Princess" off of her name, as far back as ''[[Mario Kart 64]]'' and even after the release of ''Showtime'', later that same year, ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' also [[:File:SMPJCSSUnlocked.jpg|truncated the "Princess" off of Peach's name]]. While we acknowledge it's odd to laser in on exactly one game, ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' just calls her "Peach", and that is one of the best-selling games in the entire Mario franchise.
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| We've seen various arguments against these, and aside from "personal preference for preferring particles", which we obviously can't argue with (at least, not without looking silly), we can't say we understand the majority of them:
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| *Concerns were risen about removing royalty particles from other article names, such as [[Princess Shokora]] or [[Princess Shroob]] or [[King Bob-omb]] or [[Prince Mush]] (never mind that in his case, it's a stage name and not royalty). In those cases, the characters have ''never'' been referred to without their particles that we could find unless [[You're the Bob-omb|there was already an older name in the first place]], such as "Big Bob-omb" for "King Bob-omb" (it's possible there's remote dialogue or an obscure Manga appearance we don't have on-record, but we're doubtful). These would retain their particles, as per our [[MarioWiki:Naming|Naming policies]] determining that the most common English name is what is used, and in these cases, the particle is included almost 100% of the time. In contrast, Nintendo has been fairly interchangeable with Peach and Daisy's "princess" particles, and in Daisy's case, her particle has only become increasingly rarer as time goes on. If instances were located where the aforementioned characters lacked their particles short of the Big/King Bob-omb example, that would be something worth acknowledging, but in their cases, the particles being excluded is overwhelmingly the exception, not the norm.
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| *Concerns have been risen about the [[Peach]] and [[Daisy]] article titles potentially referring to generic subjects; however, as of writing this proposal, both "Peach" and "Daisy" directly lead to their corresponding princesses anyways by means of redirects. Other subjects are instead given a "For <nowiki><x>, see <y></nowiki>" in the Princess' articles introductions. These redirects are already present as-is, and these changes wouldn't change how a search lands.
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| *For internet traffic, given Peach and Daisy already lead to these articles, we still fail to see how this would impact much, unless we intentionally chose to not leave a redirect after a move; it should go without saying that, if we were to make a move of this magnitude, we would absolutely be leaving a redirect.
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| *On a meta level, for the "would prefer one, but not the other" angle that was part of the reason the second proposal failed, we have since introduced a poll format to more adequately determine more nuanced situations like this, without risking support being split between two groups and being out-numbered overall.
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| *While this was not mentioned in the original proposals to our awareness, we do acknowledge that some people may be concerned about the costs of labor of changing a bunch of links; however, not only could this trivially be an automated rename, something our proprietor already does fairly regularly with template names, even if this were somehow unworkable, we already have ample tools to manually perform such a change built into MediaWiki itself. We are well-aware of what this wiki's userbase can do when it comes to making these mass-changes, and we think we have a very capable userbase when it comes to deploying a change like this, either automatically or by hand.
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| There are also two characters we think are worth acknowledging, one brought up by jan Misali when we shared this proposal's draft with them, and one we noticed ourselves. For jan Misali's part, there's [[Bowser]], or rather, King Bowser... Or rather, how in-frequently Bowser is known as "King Bowser". It's to the point where mentions of "King Koopa" as he appears in the ''DiC'' cartoons severely outnumber the amount of times Bowser is actually called "King Bowser" outright. This is exceedingly non-contentious, and while a [[King Bowser]] redirect has existed since 2006, we can't tell when the last time "King Bowser" was overtly used in dialogue. All we can really say is, having played ''[[Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser]]'' recently, it's not in that, with Bowser usually just being referred to as, well, Bowser, with the occasional uses of "Lord" or other offbeat honorifics instead of "King".
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| However, to us, the ''real'' smoking gun for why a move like this would not only make sense, but be perfectly fine for the wiki, has been sitting right underneath our noses the entire time. [[Rosalina]], or should we say Princess Rosalina? Rosalina has been called a Princess from sources dating as far back as 2010 and as recently as 2023. She's commonly colloquially known as a Princess by fans. Heck, [[Princess Rosalina]] is, as of writing this proposal, a valid redirect to her article, and her infobox states her full name is "Princess Rosalina". However, her article has sat at the title of "Rosalina" since its inception back in 2007, with the Princess redirect only being made in 2014. Rosalina is a Featured Article, so her page naturally receives a ''lot'' of traffic and scrutiny, but nobody seems to have questioned if it would be worth moving her article to "Princess Rosalina" to match the other two princesses; and while one could argue that Rosalina is "not much of a princess", that naturally begets the response that neither is Daisy, who keeps the particle anyways. There's not really any reason we can think of why Daisy should keep her particle if Rosalina hasn't ''ever'' held one and it's seemingly never been questioned, and from there, we could understand removing the particle from Peach's name for parity's sake. (Even still, if you really wanted to, we've provided an option to, in addition for what to do to the "Princess" particles in Peach & Daisy's names, if we should add one to Rosalina's name, or keep it absent. We don't really intend to include something like this for "King Bowser" as, while "Princess Rosalina" at least has a plurality number of cases we could find of that name being used, we could literally only find one "King Bowser", in [[Nintendo Comics System]].)
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}
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| ====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Peach?====
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|19-10|Keep name "Princess Peach"}}
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| '''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
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| ;Yes Princess (status quo)
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per past me: "I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. [...] Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it." Considering Nintendo used her full name in a game title last year, this would be a really odd time to do it, and it sheds some light on how awkward it is putting so much focus squabbling over the specifics of character select screens and the like, IMO. I don't see a consistency issue with Daisy regardless of what happens with her, they weren't designed to be perfect analogues to each other and are used in different contexts, which also informs Nintendo's usage of their full titles.
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| #{{User|Technetium}} Per Waluigi Time, past and present.
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} Much like Daisy, "princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Peach, potentially because they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts where you play as her, or they want to be conservative with text on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Peach" erroneous, archaic, unused, or inappropriate for the title of an article. This is an even stronger case for Peach because she shows up more often in non-playable appearances, where she is typically called "Princess Peach," and they represent the bulk of her history. It is the name used in most instruction booklets, toys, and even in-game. It is not the end of the world for her article to simply go by "Peach," but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining that. "Peach" is more so a shorter derivative of "Princess Peach" than "Bowser" ever was of "King Bowser" or anything like that (and ''certainly'' more so than "Princess Rosalina" is for "Rosalina.") You can probably count the number of sources that prefer using that name for him on one hand, unlike Peach.
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} [[Princess Toadstool's Castle Run|All]] [[Super Princess Peach|5]] [[Parasol Fall|Princess]] [[Peach's Puzzle|Peach]] [[Princess Peach: Showtime!|games]] have "Princess" before "Peach" (with the exception of Peach's Puzzle and Parasol Fall, unless you count it's full title being Super Princess Peach — Parasol Fall). It is also used way too commonly by Nintendo so I think it should stay the way it is.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Waluigi Time and Nintendo101
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| #{{User|SGoW}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} While I can understand the desire for consistency with the other two princesses, Princess Peach is clearly her <strike>full</strike> ''proper'' name, being used in the titles of games as well as regularly in various bits of dialogue and paratext. It's true that she's usually just Peach in a character select screen, but I don't think this defines how she is overall perceived... in my subjective experience, she would usually be known by the average person aware of Mario as Princess Peach.
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. She is called Princess Peach a lot more than she is called Peach. I asked my sister (who is a very casual fan) who her favorite character is and she specifically said Princess Peach. General audiences and Nintendo still more frequently call her Princess Peach than they do just calling her Peach.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} per all.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} I still stand by Daisy being referred to as her shortened name, but I feel this can be a case where consistency doesn't really need to be a necessity: Princess Peach is still a very commonly used name for Peach herself and while just referring to her as Peach is as common, the full name is still used much more often when compared to Daisy and especially compared to Rosalina.
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. As I’ve said before, keeping these extended names is fine because they work like identifiers and offer clarification pre-emptively and at the first sight. I’ve also pointed out that the current guidelines don’t say anything about extending names based on official material and suggested making them usable (in limited fashion) and prioritized over wiki-made identifiers. And if people seeking a specific Mario subject over a generic one is such a big deal, then add to the guidelines making use of Display Title extension. Like letting ”Peach” redirect to ”Princess Peach” while ”Peach (fruit)” would have the extension to cut (lol) the page title into ”Peach”.
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| #{{User|GeneralDonitsky}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Okapii}} Per all.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} welp, y'all won me over
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
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| #{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all. Keep up the monarchy (the mushroom one at least).
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| ;No Princess
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. While we think the arguments for keeping Peach's particle are the strongest, namely since we have an [[Princess Peach: Showtime!|entire game from 2024 with the particle in the name]], we do think if we remove this from Daisy, we should naturally remove this from Peach for the sake of parity.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Abolish the monarchy.
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
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| #{{User|Ahemtoday}} It's just "Peach" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
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| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all. I'm still not a fan of using abridged names—especially for crossover characters like [[Fox]], [[Sonic]], etc.—but if we want to be consistent about it, something's gotta give.
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} per all
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| #{{User|PopitTart}} I was initially hesitant because of the existence of ''Princess Peach Showtime'', but I was quickly swayed by looking at [https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/princess-peach-showtime-switch/ the game's online store page], which displays the simple "Peach" name no less than a dozen times.
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| #{{User|Arend}} Look, if Daisy doesn't get to be called a princess anymore (even if she's still being referred to as the princess of Sarasaland to this day), neither can Peach. Should be noted that in Dutch, whenever Peach gets called a princess, it's typically spelled "prinses Peach" ''without'' an uppercase P.
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} per all
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| <s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} The people who type “Princess Peach” into the search bar are nerds.</s><br>
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| <s>{{User|Super Mario RPG}} "Princess" is not part of the name, it's just a title and not as integral to Peach's identity as, for example, Dr. Mario.</s><br>
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| <s>{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all</s><br>
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| <s>{{User|Blinker}} Per all. And the use of "Peach" in character select screens is an intentional choice, not due to character constraints, as shown by the existance of names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)".</s>
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| ====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Daisy?====
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|8-18|Remove "Princess" from Daisy's name}}
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| '''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
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| ;Yes Princess (status quo)
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} In my view, "Princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Daisy, which happen to represent the bulk of her appearances. Perhaps they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts, or they want to be conservative with space on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Daisy" erroneous, archaic, or unused. It is the name used in ''Super Mario Land'', the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'', and licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy, where she is called "Princess Daisy." It is not the end of the world for her name to go by something else, but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining the status quo.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Nintendo101
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} Even if she is to be referred to as Daisy most of the time, Princess Daisy is still clearly her "proper" name in my view. This falls into a similar category to my views on the Peach situation (or Princess Peach, as the case may be); even though it's less supported by in-game usage and the like, this is still the main name that she is known by.
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| #{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all, what I said above about Peach.
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| #{{User|Okapii}} Per Nintendo101, and also selfishly because the inconsistency would bug me.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| ;No Princess
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. To be honest, this has never been a contest for us; as far back as flavor text in ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', Nintendo has acknowledged the weird lack of Damsel-in-distress-ness to Daisy's character, and the usage of "Daisy" in lieu of "Princess Daisy" is as old as ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' itself. That Daisy's royalty is bordering on in-name only post-''Land'' is practically a defining trait of hers.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per the trilogy of proposals, this is the name that is almost always used for this major character and it is bizarre that we aren't reflecting that. This should've happened long ago, hopefully this new poll format will finally allow it to. I think I'm neutral regarding whether to move Peach, since it's much less immediately obvious which of her two names is most commonly used.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per last times.
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
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| #{{user|Cadrega86}} Per all three past proposals.
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| #{{User|Ahemtoday}} Forgive the copy-paste job, but: it's just "Daisy" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per all
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per all the points made on past proposals. I feel nothing more needs to be added.
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} per all.
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| #{{User|PopitTart}} Hi, She's Daisy!
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| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal. Many of the points made in support of this change have been made and extensively debated, and this proposal does an excellent job outlining them and addressing potential counterarguments.<br>Above all, though, I remain steadfast that the concern about the impact of this shortening of names over search visibility is a complete non-issue. To reiterate what I said in the previous discussion, this site isn't a corporate product; it doesn't need to optimize every single little aspect of itself in the pursuit of visibility. That's not to say that visibility isn't important, but I reckon the wiki already enjoys an ample amount as is, and while only the site's owner ultimately can pull figures and projections, something tells me that calling Daisy, "Daisy" is not going to amount to much. On my machine, looking up "larry mario" or "larry koopa" still pulls up the mariowiki.com article of [[Larry]] as the top result, outranking even Fandom's aggressively promoted children--same holds true for other Koopalings--so I have to ask, if this isn't what motivates the opposing views, what exactly is the problem? Because so far it's only made these subjects easier to look up, less annoying to type out and link to, and ultimately more accurate to the creator's current vision, '''with visibility nigh intact'''. Furthermore, if Mario Wiki's purpose ever was to be perfectly optimized for search hits and clicks, I figure there would be more lucrative directions for the site to take than to be an game encyclopedia for niche things that only 0.1% of Mario fanatics realistically care about. Let unwavering accuracy be the "selling point" that elevates this wiki over all other fan resources for the Mario franchise.
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} per all
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| #{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
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| <s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.</s>
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| <s>{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Since I'm supportive of "Princess" being removed from Peach's article title, the same would apply to Daisy, who has made fewer appearances, including with the "Princess" title.</s>
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| ====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Rosalina?====
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|0-21|No "Princess" particle for Rosalina}}
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| '''Deadline''': <s>April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> Closed early on March 26, 2025, 23:59 GMT
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| ;Yes Princess
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| ;No Princess (status quo)
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We hope we've made it apparent that we think adding the particle to Rosalina's article is very silly indeed, especially decades after the fact, when Rosalina has obtained a featured article without the particle, and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} She's barely ever called that.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Queen it up.
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} Unlike the other two, there is no substantial media that refers to Rosalina as "Princess Rosalina." It is presented only in larger descriptive material on Rosalina, and even then, only occassionally.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} If anything, cases where Princess Rosalina is used are the clear outlier.
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| #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - She's clearly a queen, just sometimes lumped as one of "the princesses" for convenience. <small>(note: the first part of this comment is meant to be taken as a joke)</small>
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal. It's unclear if Rosalina is even really a princess in the first place.
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| #{{user|Cadrega86}} Per all.
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| #{{user|Ahemtoday}} Princess of ''what'', by the way? Princess of space? Can you ''be'' the princess of space?
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} princess of [[:File:TAoSMO_Rosalina_Concept_Art.jpg|acoustic rock]], obviously.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per all
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. Her backstory implies she was one, and she carries the appearance of one, but it is certainly not one of her defining characteristics.
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| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} She's straight-up never referred to this way except in supplementary material like websites, not even the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' manual calls her Princess Rosalina. This is pretty clear cut to me.
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} In Chapter 7 of [[Rosalina's Story]], there is a castle in the background that is implied to be Rosalina's house. Quote Rosalina, "I want to go back to my house by the hill!" The only visible "house" by the hill is the castle. So it's likely that she was born to royalty on her home planet. That said, Daisy has no princess particle, so Rosalina shouldn't either just going off precedence.
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. Unlike Princess Peach or Princess Daisy, Rosalina is almost never referred to as a Princess.
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} per all
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all except the queen headcanon.
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| <s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.</s>
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| <s>{{user|Super Mario RPG}} I don't think I ever recall it being used.</s>
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| ====Comments (Princess Particle Party!)====
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| Should be of note that Palutena's Guidance [https://youtu.be/Ls0qNcpAn1E?t=53 is not the ''only'' part in Ultimate] in which Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" (obviously this also applies to Peach). {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:23, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I can't track down the article (iirc, it was translated by SourceGaming), Masahiro Sakurai prefers dropping royal monikers in ''Smash Bros.'' games. If I recall correctly, it is to make the character more familial to the player and conserve textual space on the character selection screen. King Dedede is only called "Dedede" in the Japanese releases of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. That does not mean "King Dedede" is not a more complete rendering of his name. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:44, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::King K. Rool is called that in Smash, so it's clearly case-by-case (and I thought the "saving space on the character select screen" argument was debunked last time by [[List of drivers in Mario Kart Tour|Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)]]). Anyway, why should a "complete" name automatically be more desirable than the name that is actually used in pretty much every appearance of the character? As was mentioned in the proposal, we've established in cases like the Koopalings that the longest name doesn't have to be the name we use. What makes Daisy different? (Honestly, "Princess Daisy" probably has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:01, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::{{@|Hewer}} I was referring to the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and the people involved in the decisions for that series. None of them made ''Mario Kart Tour'', a more contemporaneous game. Peach has been playable in spinoffs since the 1990s and Daisy has been since 2000, where trends like this would be established on hardware more limited, and by people who may have different views on how to render their characters' name on selection screens. In ''Melee'', for example, a game with Peach, they call Captain Falcon "C. Falcon" on the [[:File:CharacterSelect-SSBMelee.png|selection screen]]. They probably could have rendered his name in full like they did for the Ice Climbers, but they didn't. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:15, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::::I was replying to your vote on Daisy as well as your comment, sorry if that wasn't clear. Either way, I don't really understand the point you're making here. My point stands that Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer) is in the same game as just Daisy. Captain Falcon is in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate with just Daisy. Can you name any games that call her "Princess Daisy" on a select screen (or other similarly prominent context besides "random line of dialogue", for that matter)? I'm not aware of any. Surely if all the different people working on different games came to the same conclusion that it should be Daisy rather than Princess Daisy, that's ''more'' reason for us to move it? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:32, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::{{@|Hewer}} In regards to "King K. Rool" - that's probably because every single language literally calls him that (at least in-game). In contrast, the reason Peach, Bowser and Dedede aren't Princess Peach, King Bowser and (JP-set) King Dedede is likely because they're literally ''Peach-hime'', ''Daimaō Koopa'' and ''Dedede-daiō'', respectively. Yes, these are simplified translations, but the nuance is different. The titles are probably getting mostly phased out because Nintendo likes it when the names of their major characters don't have to change much between regions. For example, [https://shmuplations.com/starfoxadventures/ one interview] where Takaya Imamura regretted not unifying ''Star Fox''{{'}}s Andorf as "Andross" from the start. This was also done with the big Legendary Pokémon, as I recall, etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:10, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| How is Rosalina a queen, exactly? I don't think that's ever been stated anywhere, and Peach is still Princess even though she explicitly rules the Mushroom Kingdom, so Rosalina ruling something wouldn't make her Queen necessarily. Speaking of, even if she's not technically ruling anything now, she's still a princess by birth (backstory and Baby Rosalina's design), and I don't think titles become null and void like that / "oh it's been (blank) years I guess I'm not a princess anymore". [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:03, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I recall some interview that said she was designed to be "queenly" or some such thing either for ''Galaxy'' or ''Smash Bros.'' Granted, that could also have been a mistranslation and I could be misremembering entirely. The comment I made in my vote was primarily tongue-in-cheek, not meant to be a serious reflection of what I think. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:39, March 23, 2025 (EDT)
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| @Pseudo: In what way is Princess Daisy "the main name that she is known by"? It certainly isn't officially, and in my experience it isn't even the more used name by fans either. And since Nintendo101 didn't really answer this question: why does a name being the "full name" mean it should automatically take priority? It didn't with [[Talk:Conker#Rename to Conker|Conker the Squirrel]], [[Talk:Bobbery#Changing Admiral Bobbery to just Bobbery|Admiral Bobbery]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|Sonic the Hedgehog]], [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|Professor Elvin Gadd]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Move animal names from the Donkey Kong Country series to just their normal names|Rambi the Rhino]], [[Colored Pencils|Colored Pencils, The Missile Maestro]], [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|Baby Donkey Kong]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|Wendy O. Koopa]], [[Talk:Grodus#Move to Grodus|Sir Grodus]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Move Super Princess Peach enemies to their full names|Glad Red Paratroopa]], [[Talk:TEC#Move to TEC|TEC-XX]], and indeed, Princess Rosalina. So why is Princess Daisy different? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:57, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I do agree with the argument, but I do want to just correct the mention of Glad Red Paratroopa. ''Super Princess Peach'' enemies don't actually ever show longer names than the abbreviated ones. the "full" names suggested by that proposal are ''technically'' conjectural.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:30, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::Fair enough. That's one example down, eleven more to go. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:33, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I guess what I mean is that "Princess Daisy" is sort of her brand name; it's the main name that marketing materials use for her and, in my subjective experience, is what she is known as in the public consciousness. For what it's worth, I heavily disagree with the Sonic character and Koopaling renames, and would vote against them if they were relitigated today (while I abstained from these proposals at the time, my feelings on this have become more clear to myself over time). Some of these renames do make sense to me, such as E. Gadd's, but it's a case-by-case thing I guess and I don't personally see Daisy as comparable to E. Gadd in this way. I just can't see either of these renames as at all helpful to the wiki's goals. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:01, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::In what way is "Princess Daisy" her "main name that marketing materials use"? Much like the games, marketing materials occasionally use it as an alternate name, not usually as her primary name. Here's a selection of official websites that list the Mario characters: [https://mario.nintendo.com/characters/ this] ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"), [https://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/mario/ this] ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"; it does use "Princess Daisy" after you click on her, but not on the main list, and said list uses "Princess Peach" so length can't be the issue), [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/characters/ this] ("Peach" and "Daisy"), and [https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/Games/Characters-hub/Super-Mario-Hub/Characters-2493286.html this] ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"). Notice how all of them use "Daisy" as her primary name rather than "Princess Daisy", with most of them even having "Daisy" used alongside "Princess Peach". As for the "what she is known as in the public consciousness" point, I think it's fair to say popular wikis such as this one have some influence on that (and there's also the case of [[Spiny Shell (blue)|Blue Shell]] if you want an example where the official name doesn't match the common fan name, though I'd argue that "Daisy" is also a commonly used name by fans in this case). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:50, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| For reference, here's how Play Nintendo (a division of Nintendo's American website) handles the names of Peach and Daisy.
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| *On the [https://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/ "Friends"] page, the former is "Princess Peach", while the latter is "Daisy".
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| *A [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/puzzles/jigsaw-puzzle-princess-peach-daisy-rosalina/ puzzle activity] featuring both characters renders the former as "Princess Peach", while the latter as "Daisy".
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| *Similarly, coloring activities that feature the former ([https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/mushroom-kingdom-princess-peach-paint-activity/], [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/princess-peach-paint-by-numbers-spring-2023/], [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/paint-by-number-princess-peach-activity/]) render her name as "Princess Peach". Compare Daisy's [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/daisy-paint-by-numbers-online-activity/ own coloring activity], where she is rendered as simply "Daisy".
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| *[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/skill-quizzes/valentines-day-mushroom-kingdom-trivia-quiz/ In this quiz], at question 2 you'll notice the "Daisy" answer; question 4 invokes "Princess Peach".
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| *[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/opinion-polls/mushroom-kingdom-role-model-poll/ A poll] uses the shortforms of both ("Peach" and "Daisy").
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| Now, for a change of pace:
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| *Daisy is displayed as "Princess Daisy" on [https://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/princess-daisy/ her own profile], which doubles as the hub of Daisy-related stuff on that site.
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| *[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/skill-quizzes/mushroom-kingdom-character-trivia-quiz/ Another pop quiz] uses "Princess Peach" and... "'''Princess''' Daisy".
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| *[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/opinion-polls/mushroom-kingdom-character-hang-out-poll/ This poll], likewise.
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| Note that the pages linked above are not tied to any particular product, but rather the Mario series in general. Most were nevertheless published during the Switch generation, and I strived to highlight as much cross-reference material as I could find from both Daisy's profile on the site, and the [https://play.nintendo.com/search/?s=daisy search results for "daisy"] (which aren't all that different for "[https://play.nintendo.com/search/?s=princess+daisy princess daisy]"). It appears that activities which promote specific games overwhelmingly invoke characters using the same name they use in those games. In other words, "Peach" for Peach, and "Daisy" for Daisy, as expected. Some examples: [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/opinion-polls/super-mario-bros-wonder-character-poll/][https://play.nintendo.com/printables/crafts/super-mario-party-jamboree-printable-party-hats/][https://play.nintendo.com/activities/skill-quizzes/super-mario-online-trivia/][https://play.nintendo.com/activities/personality-quizzes/who-is-your-super-mario-party-jamboree-buddy/][https://play.nintendo.com/activities/personality-quizzes/mario-golf-super-rush-personality-quiz/]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:17, March 20, 2025 (EDT), edited 17:00, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|Camwoodstock}} ''"[...] and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy."''<br>I don't think that's true. Daisy has been called the princess of Sarasaland as late as ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]''. Rosalina, on the other hand, I cannot recall her ever being referred to as a princess of anything. Or royalty at all, for that matter. People presumed she was "Princess Rosalina" or "Princess Rosetta" in the early years before Mario Galaxy released purely because she has that "Princess Peach"-esque look, but canonically, she's been referred to as the protector of the cosmos, the keeper of the Comet Observatory, and the mother of the Lumas; none of which are titles of royalty. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:40, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I agree, but the proposal is specifically about whether the characters' articles should be called "Princess Peach/Daisy/Rosalina", not whether they are canonically princesses. Let's stay on-topic. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:53, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
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| I shared this in private, but I was encouraged to relay this here. I principally feel a dogmatic adherence to consistency for the sake of consistency or policy for the sake of policy can lead to bad decisions. The actions proposed should stand on their own merits, and I feel like this proposal has not really made that case, or at least not to me. Regardless of how folks personally feel, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy are still regularly used in official capacities. In the headers of booklets, encyclopedias, and on the backs of merchandise. Even within in-game dialogue, especially for Peach. They are part of the general parlance and lexicon of people who play these games and are familiar with these characters. However, some folks in opposition seem to be acting like these names are inherently invalid or as archaic as the name "Princess Toadstool" or "King Koopa." If they aren't legitimately retired by the publisher and are interchangeable with "Peach" and "Daisy" in a way "Professor Elvin Gadd" or even "Princess Rosalina" never were for their characters, then why is it detrimental that they're the default names of their respective articles? What is the substantive harm? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:52, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
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| :That first bit about consistency also works as an argument for why Peach and Daisy don't necessarily need to be "consistent" with each other regarding whether they use the long names. Anyway, I believe that "Daisy" being the preferred official name over "Princess Daisy" is incredibly clear, and the fact that a name is sometimes used in certain cherry-picked instances doesn't override the most common and prominent usages. Everything you say about the current names being used in official sources and being familiar to fans applies just as well if not better to the names this proposal seeks to change to. You're right that the current names are used more than something like "Professor Elvin Gadd", but it's not like that has to be the cutoff point (and as I said earlier, you could certainly make an argument that Princess Daisy has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|which you even supported shortening]]). Keeping it the way it is does not cause "substantive harm", exactly, but I don't remember anyone ever arguing that it does - the benefit of the move is to be more accurate to the overwhelming majority of official sources. And I do not understand your characterisation of this as "policy for the sake of policy", it's for the sake of accuracy to the source material, which the wiki is always striving for.<br>Here's a hypothetical to consider: if it happened that the wiki's article on Daisy had always used the name "Daisy" (and assuming everything else about the situation was unchanged), do you think you'd be pushing for a move to "Princess Daisy"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 23:07, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::Potentially, yes. I would. Because I think Princess Daisy is more inherently clarifying as the article title and it is exercised in modern contexts that I think are more directly parallel to how one would title articles in referential material like ours. I think there are sometimes different goals and incentives for character selection screens and the like. For example, at the end of ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' Peach is simply called "Princess," but if this site only covered SMB2, I would argue our article name for her should be "Princess Toadstool" despite it not being the name in-game.
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| ::My view in the previous proposal on this, as well as the one concerning the Koopalings, has evolved over time. I think "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" are better, more intuitive, and more clarifying article titles (especially for the former, though I do admittedly still prefer the parallel between Peach and Daisy. That's a bit less important though). In my experience, most people who engage with Nintendo games and ''Mario'' do not know these characters simply as "Peach" and "Daisy." So when you have these more clarifying names exercised in the modern era - in instruction booklets, encyclopedias, general official media, etc. - alongside the more familial "Peach" and "Daisy," what benefit does changing those names bring us? Because if anything it could create instances of navigating the site to find articles on these characters more difficult for some visitors by making their roles more opaque, at least peripherally. So I don't see any gain from this tradeoff, or an improvement of accuracy. I see it as trading a slightly more clarifying, valid, and exercised name for one that is equally valid but less clarifying. The only real benefit is that it can make piping links easier in the body texts of articles for editors, but I am personally more than willing to sacrifice editorial convenience to clarify things for readers when the option is there. I help maintain this site for them primarily, and it is for similar reasons why I did not simply title [[Crossovers with The Legend of Zelda|this article]] "''The Legend of Zelda''." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:35, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::Admittedly, this response is based on personal life experience, but we've had basically the opposite happen to us; sure, people generally get it when you say "Princess Peach", but tend to raise eyebrows at "Princess Daisy" over just calling her Daisy. Calling Rosalina by "Princess Rosalina" is then promptly seen as an ''extreme'' over-correction if it's explained to them. Having quick-fire asked both friends and family about this, "Daisy" came up every time over "Princess Daisy", sans one instance of someone mistaking her for Rosalina and one giving an obvious joke answer, and in the former case, even ''then'' they omitted "Princess". Admittedly, there is probably a very large bias among family members at play as we have a dog expressly named Daisy, and our sample size here is incredibly small as this was very spur of the moment, late at night.<br>Even still, the total lack of ''any'' "Princess" particles at all here definitely reflects a very different lived experience, so while we definitely can't speak for everyone--it would be extremely silly of us to try to assert that your peers don't include "Princess" just because ours don't, that's absurd!--we can definitely vouch that, in our corner of the world, the "Princess" particle tends to be omitted. Make of this what one may, we just thought we'd share our own experiences here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 00:28, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::"Princess Daisy" is the name used much less by fans in my experience too. If there actually are fans who primarily use "Princess Daisy" (ignoring for a moment the fact that I don't think that matters), I do think it's at least plausible that the wiki's usage of the name is part of the reason. Also, why is "clarification" such a big deal anyway? People who know about the Mario franchise would expect an article called "Daisy" to be about the major recurring character called that, I don't see any real potential for confusion. We shouldn't be sacrificing accuracy to appeal to some hypothetical minority who wouldn't understand what the page was about if we removed the word "Princess" from the title (and who for some reason can't just glance at the start of the article for two seconds to immediately find out). Also, this list you keep giving of "instruction booklets, encyclopedias, general official media, etc." - what exactly is this referring to? In your vote you listed Super Mario Land (so old that Peach was still Toadstool), the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia (seriously?), and "licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy" (which have never taken priority over the video games in any case I'm aware of, and which often use the shortened name anyway). I'm not a big fan of ignoring the naming policy's guidance to cherry-pick sources that use the name we'd rather have. The usage of shortened "Daisy" is not limited to character select screens as you keep implying - for instance, see the links I provided in an earlier comment, which show that most official websites use the names "Princess Peach" and "Daisy". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:11, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::::I do not agree that "Daisy" is a more accurate article title than "Princess Daisy." I think they are equally as valid, same with "Princess Peach" and "Peach," but again, I admittedly feel more strongly for her than Daisy. As others have mentioned, she even had a game published last year that referred to her as "Princess Peach" in the ''title''. It would be disingenuous to say "Daisy" is not used more often than "Princess Daisy," but the latter ''is'' used, whether it is in contexts you personally think should be considered valid or not. This was part of what I was saying with people treating these names as outdated and erroneous as "Princess Toadstool." These names are exercised in the modern era. So I do not think we are sacrificing accuracy by retaining the names we have. But we are sacrificing clarification, which is something I care about in maintaining reference material aimed for the public to read. This isn't a site just to be edited. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:55, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::::I still don't understand what clarification issues you think would be caused by moving to the subject's more common name. I don't know why "Daisy" would be any less clear as an article title than "Rosalina" or "Pauline" or any character name, but if there was anyone who didn't know what it meant, their confusion would be instantly quelled if they just looked at the article for a second or two. I can't imagine any context in which the supposed loss of clarity would be a problem. I'm still neutral regarding whether to move Peach since I think the argument against it is more reasonable than it is with Daisy, but I'll point out that it being used in a title isn't necessarily a deciding factor - [[Mario]] the character isn't titled "Super Mario" (which is used in the titles of some games that lack the [[Super Mario (form)|form]]). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:31, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::For what it's worth, Nintendo101's messages here more or less match my opinion on this subject entirely. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:14, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
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