Editing MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68


===Remove ''Zelda''-Exclusive Pages===
{{Proposal outcome|canceled}}
There are several pages in [[:Category:The_Legend_of_Zelda_series]] that I believe should be deleted from the wiki.  There are many pages in the category that should clearly remain on the wiki, like [[Ancient Tires]], [[Hyrule Castle]] and [[Deku Baba]], which appear in ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''; [[8-Bit Hero]], a [[microgame]] in ''[[WarioWare: Touched!]]''; [[Recorder]], an item that has appeared in both series; or [[Link]] and [[Master Sword]], which have appeared in multiple ''Mario'' games.  Then there are pages that have no connection to the ''Mario'' series at all.

We have the [[List of references in Nintendo video games]] to cover topics such as these. I fail to see why they need their own pages.  Even some of the links for these articles on the references page link to their equivalent articles on [https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Main%20Page Zelda Wiki], our [[MarioWiki:Nintendo Independent Wiki Alliance|NIWA affiliate]], because editors on our own wiki likely assume we don't have pages for ''Zelda''-exclusive content. For example, why is [[Stone Elevator]] covered as a separate page but we don’t have a page for [https://nookipedia.com/wiki/Gulliver Gulliver], who references [[Toad Town]] and [[the Overthere]] in ''Animal Crossing'', giving Gulliver, who has apparently visited places in the ''Mario'' series, a more direct connection than Stone Elevator, which just shares visual similarities to Thwomps? To be clear, I '''don’t''' think we should have a page for Gulliver for the reason that he '''does not appear in a ''Mario'' series game'''.  Perhaps a more potent example is [https://wikirby.com/wiki/Togezo Togezo] from ''Kirby’s Adventure'', which is clearly a Kirbified version of a [[Spiny]] and even shares the same Japanese name.  Why is there a page for [[Manhandla]] from ''Zelda'', a variant of [[Piranha Plant]], but not Togezo?  There just doesn’t seem to be consistency.

For some reason, these pages seem to be disproportionally related to ''The Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening'' compared to other ''Zelda'' games.  Perhaps that is because there’s more profound references in ''Link’s Awakening'', but as someone not familiar with the ''Zelda'' series, it strikes me as very odd that there’s favoritism for references in that game but there aren't independent pages any other ''Zelda''-exclusive references on the page. [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Determine_The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Link.27s_Awakening_and_its_reissues_as_a_guest_appearance_and_create_an_article_covering_all_three_versions_and.2For_its_Mario-related_subjects|This proposal]] from 2022 permits the creation of non-''Mario'' series pages, but they seem out of place on '''Mario Wiki''', so I think we should explore undoing the consequences of this proposal.

Furthermore, pages like [[Keese]] only cover the enemies’ appearance in ''Mario'' games, whereas Manhandla covers the extensive history of Mandhala throughout the ''Zelda'' series.  Again, notably, Manhandla doesn’t have any appearances in ''Mario'' games, so I suppose it has to cover everything it does in ''Zelda'' since otherwise the page would be blank.

If [[Yoshi doll]] exists as an independent page, then shouldn’t every [https://nookipedia.com/wiki/Mario%20Theme ''Animal Crossing'' furniture series] and [https://nookipedia.com/wiki/Item:Big_bro%27s_hat_(New_Leaf) clothing from the ''Animal Crossing'' series like the Big Bro's Hat] that references the ''Mario'' series also be given its own page? I just fail to see the difference. It’s more of the disproportionate coverage of ''Link’s Awakening''. 

Perhaps the worst offender is [[Bombite]], which has no confirmed connection to the ''Mario'' series whatsoever.  Per the page, “They '''appear''' to be based on Bob-ombs.”  That alone is sufficient to be given a page on the wiki?

To be fair, there is [https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/Iwata-Asks/Iwata-Asks-The-Legend-of-Zelda-Spirit-Tracks/Iwata-Asks-Zelda-Handheld-History-/2-Kirby-and-Chomps-in-Zelda/2-Kirby-and-Chomps-in-Zelda-233781.html developer commentary] about some of the ''Mario''-inspired features in ''Zelda'' games affirming they were, indeed, inspired by ''Mario'' equivalents (not including Bombite), but is our threshold going to become developer confirmation for significance enough to the ''Mario'' series to have an independent page?  I'm sure that similar commentary could be found for much listed on [[List of references in Nintendo video games]].  If that's our threshold, then shouldn't we create pages for everything confirmed to be inspired by anything to do with the ''Mario'' series?  That would be a tidal wave of new pages. If not, why is ''Link's Awakening'' being treated differently from everything else?

Something of a middle-ground solution is to create a page on our wiki for ''Link's Awakening''.  Though I do not favor this idea, there is precedence for the creation of pages for games that pay significant homage to the ''Mario'' series but aren't in the series themselves, including ''but not limited to'' ''[[Captain Rainbow]]'', ''[[Fortune Street]]'', and, of course, the entire [[Super Smash Bros. (series)]].  I don't favor this option given the roles of ''Mario'' characters in ''Link's Awakening'' are much more minor compared to something like [[Birdo]] having a mildly significant role in ''Captain Rainbow'', but there seems to be a lot of love for ''Link's Awakening'' on this wiki, so maybe this could be a middle ground solution.  This page would house the information for Bombite, Mega Thowmp, Spiked Thowmp, Stone Elevator, and Yoshi doll, but it would remove the independent pages for Manhandla (''The Legend of Zelda'') and Head Thwomp (''Oracle of Ages'') and just confine them to the references page.

'''Pages that would be deleted:'''
*[[Bombite]] - no connection to ''Mario'' series whatsoever other than looking like Bob-ombs
*[[Head Thwomp]] - never appeared in a ''Mario'' game but is related to Thwomp
*[[Mega Thwomp]] - same as above
*[[Spiked Thwomp]] - same as above
*[[Stone Elevator]] - same as above
*[[Yoshi doll]] - just a reference to Yoshi in ''Link’s Awakening''

'''Options breakdown'''
I’ve drafted nine options to address the inconsistencies or excess coverage.

*'''Option 1''' deletes the pages I’ve highlights and incorporates relevant parts of the information on those pages elsewhere. In the case of the Thwomps, there is already a section referencing them on [[Thwomp]].

*'''Option 2''' takes the converse approach and adds exhaustive information about ''Zelda'' series pages on the wiki to bridge the gap between [[Manhandla]] and [[Keese]] and similar pages.
:<span style="font-size:12px">''^ Note that no equivalent option for Option 2 exists that would simply remove the bulk of the information from the highlighted pages as there would be nothing to put on the pages other than "X is a variant of X", e.g. "Manhandla is a variant of Piranha Plant that appears in ''The Legend of Zelda'' series", since these enemies have no relation to the ''Mario'' series other than being inspired by enemies in the series.''

*'''Option 3''' implements Option 2 but also creates new pages for obvious inspirations from the ''Mario'' series like [https://wikirby.com/wiki/Togezo Togezo], ''Animal Crossing'' furniture and clothing, and similar examples.

*'''Option 4''' keeps the Thwomp-related pages since they have a more potent connection to the ''Mario'' series, though I believe that if we do this we should create a page on the wiki for Togezo and every other enemy from a different franchise that is based on something from the ''Mario'' series, which I don’t think is necessary but becomes appropriate if we have pages for the Thwomp-relations and Manhandla.  [[Yoshi doll]] is also kept in this option if people want that for whatever reason, but I again suggest that if we have a page for Yoshi doll, then we should have a page for all the similar furniture items from the ''Animal Crossing'' series and other series.  I strongly believe all this information is best confined to [[List of references in Nintendo video games]] instead.  If we're taking this option but not Option 3, I just see it as giving a lot of preferential coverage to ''Link's Awakening''.

*'''Option 5''' keeps Yoshi doll but deletes the Thwomp-related pages and Bombite.  See argument against this in Option 4's description.

*'''Option 6''' keeps all other pages but deletes [[Bombite]] since it is the least related to the ''Mario'' series and would suggest we should have pages for any enemy from any Nintendo game that resembles a [[Bob-omb]], which, given their design, would be basically any sapient bomb enemy.

*'''Option 7''' creates a page for ''Link's Awakening'' and deletes the highlighted pages. This gives a place for all the highlighted pages on the wiki to exist outside of the references list, minus Manhandla and Head Thwomp.

*'''Option 8''' creates a page for ''Link's Awakening'' but keeps Manhandla and Head Thwomp as independent pages.

*'''Option 9''', the do nothing option, would consider all of this as a non-issue and leave things as they are now.

'''Proposer''': {{User|DrBaskerville}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 08, 2024, 23:59 GMT

==== Option 1: Remove the highlighted pages as independent pages, add information about them to Trivia on other pages where applicable, and ensure they are referenced on List of references in Nintendo video games ====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer. It's a good way of acknowledging these entities exist while not treating them as having the same amount of integration within the ''Super Mario'' franchise as [[Thwimp]]s, for example.

==== Option 2: Keep all pages and add exhaustive information from the ''Zelda'' series to any ''Zelda'' pages on the wiki, e.g. Keese, Deku Baba, Master Sword, etc. ====

==== Option 3: Keep all pages, add exhaustive information from the ''Zeldra'' series to any ''Zelda'' pages on the wiki, and create pages for ''Mario''-inspired content, like Togezo and ''Animal Crossing'' references ====

==== Option 4: Keep Thwomp-related pages, Manhandla, and Yoshi doll, but remove Bombite ====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Second choice.

==== Option 5: Keep Yoshi doll, but remove Thwomp-related pages, Manhandla, and Bombite ====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Third choice.

==== Option 6: Keep all other pages, but remove Bombite ====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Fourth choice.

==== Option 7: Create page for ''Link's Awakening'' and remove highlighted independent pages ====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Fifth choice.

==== Option 8: Create page for ''Link's Awakening'' and keep Manhandla and Head Thwomp pages ====

==== Option 9: Do nothing ====
# {{User|Axis}} The proposal fails to understand why these pages have been created in the first place. ''The Legend of Zelda'' series is considered a guest appearance, meaning anything ''Mario'' themed or derived from the ''Mario'' franchise gets a page. While [[Bombite]] and [[Stone Elevator]] have no direct connection to the ''Mario'' series (someone should dig up ''Player's Guide'' and ''Nintendo Power'' for these), other entries clearly do, and therefore should stay as independent pages ([[MarioWiki:Coverage]]). I believe Bombite and Stone Elevator should be handled seperately on their own respective talk pages (there is an ongoing discussion on Stone Elevator's talk page). The reason items from ''Animal Crossing'' don't get their own pages is because noone made a proposal to classify the series as guest appearance yet (unlike the ''Zelda'' series, the items in ''Animal Crossing'' are purely decorational. I doubt anyone would make a proposal).
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Axis. It seems to me that this proposal underestimates just how much of a guest appearance Link’s Awakening is for the Mario series—there really are a lot of crossover enemies.
#{{User|Hewer}} Leaning towards this for now, partly because the proposer seems to have been unaware that Link's Awakening is already classified as a guest appearance with [[The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening|its own page]], but mostly because this seems a bit too much for a single proposal. If there are issues with our current handling of this, it'd be better to solve them individually than in a giant, sweeping proposal.
#{{User|Arend}} The fact that Options 7 and 8 involves creating an article for ''Link's Awakening'' when [[The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening|we already have an article for such a thing]] makes it apparent that the proposer has not done enough research before setting up this proposal - and thus is in need for some retooling. It reminds me of [[Template talk:Themes#Composers subsection|this one proposal]] in which the proposer wanted to add a Composers subsection to [[Template:Themes|the Recurring themes nav template]] (which would be rather unfitting) and was pitching an idea about dedicated articles for composers as if we did not have those yet (even though we already have [[:Category:Composers|several of those]], and all of them, plus the ones we don't have yet, are already included in the Composers subsection of the [[Template:People|People]] nav template, rendering the whole point of the proposal redundant).

==== Comments ====
I apologize for the length of this proposal and the number of options, but I wanted to ensure as many approaches as possible were offered.  {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 03:55, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

It's possible that there are other pages exclusively related to other series on the wiki as well outside of the ''Zelda'' pages that I've highlighted.  Their exclusion from this proposal is not due to me believing they should remain but instead being ignorant of their existence. If similar pages exist from other franchises, please feel free to note them in reply to this comment and, ''if this proposal passes'', I'll explore deletion proposals for them as well depending on the strength of their relationship to the ''Mario'' series. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 03:55, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

Uh, there is a [[The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening|Link's Awakening]] page. It was classified as a guest appearance (i.e. page-worthy) by that 2022 proposal you linked to, and [[MarioWiki:Coverage]] tells us that "if a subject is unique to [a guest appearance] while also being clearly derived from the ''Super Mario'' franchise, they can receive individual articles", so all the Link's Awakening Mario-inspired enemies are therefore eligible to get articles. Admittedly though, I'm not sure about pages for the Mario-inspired enemies from other games that we don't consider guest appearances, as while it was technically decided by that 2022 proposal, it was only clarified in a comment that it would extend to all Zelda games rather than just Link's Awakening, and it's less supported by policy. And yeah, some of them (like Bombite) do kinda seem to be stretches, but that's probably better handled on its own rather than in a giant proposal like this. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:19, July 1, 2024 (EDT)