Editing Category talk:Third-party characters

==Real people==
{{talk}}
I know that real people (e.g. [[Abraham Lincoln]]) aren't "third-party characters," but they aren't from the ''Super Mario'' franchise. It wouldn't sound right to call them third-party characters, so how would we make a similar category of real people who have appeared in ''Super Mario''? I would say "Licensed characters" perhaps, since Mike Tyson was licensed for ''Punch Out!!'' in early releases; yes, this is not a ''Super Mario'' game, but it's the first example that occurred to mind. But would historical figures be "licensed" for inclusion? Or does "crossover" apply, since they are crossing over from real life into the world of ''Super Mario''? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:37, May 6, 2024 (EDT)

== Subcategory for "third-party ''Super Mario'' characters"? ==

{{talk}}
I've had the idea to create this subcategory ever since I first read [https://x.com/BruhKonata1/status/1808667444313272379 this tweet]. I was initially going to launch a proposal on implementing this and other alternative solutions to my issues with this category, but due to a combination of me not feeling confident my proposal would be supported at the time, the other options being impractical, and the possibility that this may not require a proposal at all, I scratched that plan and decided to discuss my idea here instead.

The current definition of this category is, per its description, "''Characters who are not owned by [[Nintendo]] or any of its second-party companies, but who have appeared in the ''[[Super Mario (franchise)|Super Mario]]'' franchise or in related crossovers.''" While this is perfectly reasonable for characters from non-Nintendo series like [[Sonic]] and [[Pac-Man]], it feels quite awkward for characters like [[Geno]] and [[Timber]], who originated in the ''Super Mario'' franchise and just happen to be owned by third-party companies (namely, [[Square Enix]] and [[Rare Ltd.]] respectively). To resolve this, I'd like to create a subcategory for the latter kind of third-party characters, which I'm tentatively calling {{fake link|Category:Third-party Super Mario characters}}. Its description would be something like:

<blockquote>Characters originating in the ''[[Super Mario (franchise)|Super Mario]]'' franchise who are not owned by [[Nintendo]] or any of its second-party companies.</blockquote>

While the original characters of ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]'' would feel right at home in this hypothetical subcategory, the Rare-owned characters of ''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]'' (excluding [[Banjo]], [[Conker]], and [[Talk:Tiptup|arguably]] [[Tiptup]]) are a little more dicey, as [[Diddy Kong Racing#Development|that game did not start out as a ''Donkey Kong'' game]] as ''Super Mario RPG'' did a ''Super Mario'' game. Still, given the results of [[Talk:Fangamer|the Fangamer proposal]], it's fairly safe to consider these characters part of the ''Super Mario'' franchise.

My initial solution to this issue was to tighten the definition of this category to characters that are both not owned by Nintendo or its subsidiaries ''and'' come from a series also not owned by them, but it felt highly disingenuous to exclude characters that we ''know'' aren't owned by Nintendo, so I scrapped that. If you're wondering, my other ideas included creating a subcategory for characters for non-Nintendo series while leaving the third-party ''Super Mario'' characters in this one—the opposite of the idea I've settled on, and ''outright deleting this category''. Yeah, no.

Do note that this wouldn't change what we count as a "third-party ''Super Mario'' character" to fit the aforementioned tweet, as there's no confirmation that Nintendo ''doesn't'' own the original characters from the [[Donkey Kong Country (television series)|''Donkey Kong Country'' television series]], ''[[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]]'', etc. like there is with the original characters of ''Super Mario RPG'' and ''Diddy Kong Racing''. If we ''do'' get confirmation of Nintendo not owning these characters, however, my idea may be necessary to keep this category from becoming even more bloated.

If you have any other ideas for this category, I'd be open to hear them! [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:17, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
:Makes sense. I think most people coming here would be looking for third-party crossovers, not Mario characters that happen to not be owned by Nintendo. (Also, are characters like Sergeant Flutter and Toadofsky really third-party? I figured Nintendo would own the rights since they're based on their designs, like Krunch.) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:59, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
::There's no confirmation that Nintendo still owns Sergeant Flutter and Toadofsky, but there's also no confirmation that they ''don't'', either. I wouldn't consider them "third-party" unless we somehow get solid evidence proving otherwise. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 20:50, September 8, 2024 (EDT)

Counterargument to my previous comment: [[Kinoppe]] is a [[Toad (species)|Toad]] who is confirmed to be owned by Kazuki Motoyama? Though, I think this can be resolved with a simple criterion: characters of Nintendo-original species must have explicit confirmation of them not being owned by Nintendo to be included in the subcategory. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:34, October 29, 2024 (EDT)