Editing Category talk:Thieves

==Do we need this?==
Is there a purpose to this category? It seems like {{fake link|Category:Characters who have kissed Mario}} all over again.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:35, 22 October 2017 (EDT)
:It is not, it is a valid subcategory for [[:Category:Jobs]]. It just needs cleaned a bit. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:57, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
::This should probably be cleaned to only include chronic and/or occupational thieves, like [[Popple]], [[Nabbit]], [[Ms. Mowz]], [[Rookie]], [[Wario]] potentially, [[Croco]], and the like. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:08, 8 February 2018 (EST)

== A dissection of the state of the category ==
We were asked so kindly, and so against our better judgement for our sanity's sake, here's a deep-dive on this category! We have good news and bad news--it's not as hard as the lookalikes category... but because it's one big category, it's only ''marginally'' shorter. Anyways!

A lot of the issues with this category can be traced back to one fundamental aspect of it: "The various characters and enemies in the Super Mario franchise and related series that commit acts of thievery for a living '''or have robbed something at any point.'''" That bold part needs to go, NOW. Like... Do we put everyone who's ever been playable in Mario Party in because you can steal items in that game? Obviously not, that would render the category entirely worthless.

Also, why are [[:Category:Bandits]] and [[:Category:Little Mousers]] not subcategories? Bandit himself is in here, Little Mouser is in here too, and a few other Bandit enemies got in as well (even the ones that don't steal but do resemble Bandit, like [[Zeus Guy]], but ''not'' the category itself? The Bandits that aren't themselves thieves should be pruned (for some reason, the Little Mousers have no such false inclusions like this?), but as a generalized inclusion, the Bandit and Little Mouser categories should totally fit in here. 

Also, we want to suggest pruning kidnappers, since while that is technically stealing a person, that's kind of its own separate crime out of the scope of this. Maybe that could be an article split? There's been more than a few baddies that've tried stealing Peach or Baby Mario, after all...

*[[Antasma]]: Should be removed. We've played Dream Team twice and are just so, so normal about it... and we literally don't know why he's here.
*[[Baby Bowser]]: This may be a hot take, but we think this makes sense? Just about every antagonistic role he's had has involved him stealing things. We think the only exception is ''PiT'', and even then, he's more of an anti-villain in that game because he has mutual enemies with the Shroobs.
*[[Badge Bandit]]: Makes sense. Bandit, steals items.
*[[Bandit]]: Makes sense. Bandit, steals items.
*[[Bandy Andy]]: Makes sense. Bandit, steals items, Jerma.
*[[Belle]]: Makes sense. She's part of a trio of thieves with [[Billy Bob]] and [[Colonel Culpepper]].
*[[Big Bandit]]: Makes sense. It's what Bandy Andy is.
*[[Billy Bob]]: Makes sense; see Belle.
*[[Birdo]]: Should be removed. We think this is literally only here because she was very briefly partnered with Popple... And she's not actually there to steal anything, she just got a crush on Popple (somehow).
*[[Bowser]]: ...Provisional approval? We're a little unclear on this. Sure, Bowser's stolen many things over the course of the Mario franchise, but it's gotten to the point where it's easier to list the crimes Bowser ''hasn't'' committed by this point. And unlike Baby Bowser, he isn't exactly only for stealing things. We could see this swinging either way--personally, we think it's fine as it doesn't hurt the category to include this--but we could understand its exclusion.
*[[Bowser Jr.]]: ...This one can probably go. It's like Bowser, but with a much less impressive resume of stuff he's stolen compared to his father and ESPECIALLY his father as a baby (we think Bowser stealing things has only ever been relevant in Sunshine, where it's implied he stole the original paintbrush from E. Gadd--something that's never been explicitly confirmed, mind you. Aside from that we guess there's his bonus boss fight in Dream Team? But like, that's not much), the argument for including it on the grounds that it's a notable facet of him falls flat.
*[[Carpaccio]]: Makes sense. ''Wario: Master of Disguise'' is full of these various phantom thief characters.
*[[Collector]]: Makes sense. It's like a Bandit functionally, he just looks silly.
*[[Colonel Culpepper]]: Makes sense; see Belle.
*[[Count Cannoli]]: Makes sense, he is literally ''the'' Phantom thief of ''W:MoD''.
*[[Croco]]: Makes sense, him stealing items is a recurring element and it incites both of his boss fights.
*[[Crook]]: These guys might be the most unclear ones of the bunch. As generic enemies, despite their obvious looks as a generic thief, they actually ''can't steal any items at all''. That's truly, truly embarassing. But then, a few Crooks appear with Croco in the Mole Mines. So do they count anyways? ...Honestly, we're unsure. You could probably hold a proposal just over this enemy.
*[[Dr. Demise]]: Makes sense, he's a criminal that steals both a safe and meteor dust. This is about 5 more than the amount of thieves we expected in Supercade. Yes, we know this is the fourth one, bear with us here.
*[[Dr. Wily]]: Should probably go. Sure, Wily loves stealing various robot masters to arm them for combat and he has an impressively large collection of prototype Guts Man he almost certainly stole, but none of that happens in the Mario series; in neither Captain N, the Club Nintendo comic, not even Smash, does Wily ever actually steal a thing.
*[[Fluffy]]: Should probably go. Fluffy isn't the thief here--the ''Lakitu'' is! That's like putting the [[Wario Car]] in here!
*[[Frog Pirate]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. While ther phrasing of "it will lash out its tongue and try to steal Baby Mario" did jump out to us, it's Yoshi's Island. ''All of the enemies are trying to steal Baby Mario''. This should almost definitely not become a glorified list of Yoshi's Island series enemies.
*[[Fuzzy]]: Provisional acceptance. We think it makes sense since in Paper Mario, there's a major sequence where they steal a ton of things from Koopa Village, but also, that's just one game--and they don't exactly steal things often in other games before and after that...
*[[Ghost (Wario Land 4)]]: Makes sense. Another enemy that steals things that isn't a Bandit.
*[[Hand-It-Overs]]: Makes sense; see Bandy Andy, it's literally the team with him in it.
*[[Herman Smirch]]: Makes sense, though we will dock points for being the objectively most boring type of thief--'''insider theft.'''
*[[Horace]]: Makes sense. That's why we said there were 5 more than the amount of thieves we expected to be in Supercade.
*[[Iggy Koopa]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. Same goes for all the Koopalings.
*[[Itsunomanika Heihō]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers, even if he ''is'' a Bandit--he doesn't steal coins, just babies.
*[[King Dedede]]: Should be removed. Guy doesn't even have an article to himself, do you expect him to have stolen anything in the Mario series?
*[[King K. Rool]]: Makes sense. He stole the Banana Hoard.
*[[Klepto]]: Makes sense; he steals Mario's hat. Though, why isn't [[Ukiki]] in here too? We think that's an oversight.
*[[Kleptoad]]: Makes sense; another bandit-esque enemy that's not a bandit.
*[[Koopalings]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers, and uh, get ready to hear us say "see Koopalings" a lot.]]
*[[Larry Koopa]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings. Didn't even take a sentence.
*[[Larson]]: Makes sense, he's a bandit that's committed credit card fraud.
*[[Lemmy Koopa]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
*[[Little Mouser]]: Makes sense. When they want a thief enemy, and don't want Bandit, they'll usually use Little Mouser instead. 
*[[Ludwig von Koopa]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
*[[Marshadow]]: Needs to be removed, now. Why is this the only Pokemon here? Sure, Spectral Thief is a movie. But there's a move literally just called "Thief", and that is a move that ''many'' Pokemon can learn, last we checked! Do we add Pikachu because he can learn Thief via TM? Do we add Pyukumuku, because even though it's using counter, its animation is a grab kinda like Marshadow??? In the maximal case, this category could become completely inundated with Pokemon is what we're getting at, and that needs to be nipped in the bud now.
*[[McGoomba]]: Makes sense. He evidently stole ''something'', and it's implied the dude stole from his own mom.
*[[Morton Koopa Jr.]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
*[[Mouser]]: Makes sense; in [[BS Super Mario USA]], he is the one who stole the various gold Mario statues that appear scattered around in the levels.
*[[Mr. X]]: Makes sense. There are ''6 thieves'' for Supercade now. This category is giving us a skewed idea of what Supercade contains.
*[[Ms. Mowz]]: Makes sense. Her lore is that she's a badge thief, and her primary gimmick as a partner is helping you get items by stealing them off enemies.
*[[Nabbit]]: Makes sense. He is a rabbit-ish thief.
*[[Ninja (character)]]: Makes sense; he does steal the trophy in [[Mario Sports Mix]] in one of his only actual character moments.
*[[Old lady]]: Makes sense. She tries to rob Mario and Luigi for their money.
*[[Pietro]]: Makes sense. He's a con artist specifically trying to steal money.
*[[Popple]]: Makes sense; literally every time he's involved, he's causing a conflict by trying to steal things, he steals the Bros. hammers, he steals the in-game terminology of "bros. attack" for crying out loud!
*[[Robbird]]: Makes sense; they are another enemy that steals coins, but isn't a Bandit.
*[[Rookie]]: Makes sense; this is literally Bowser: Oops! All Stealing! edition.
*[[Rouge]]: Unclear; while Rouge ''is'' a noted thief in her source material, a-la Dr. Wily, we don't actually know of any time she stole anything in the Olympic Games games? However, those are a tremendous blind spot for us, so maybe something happened in a super-remote installment. We don't feel like we know enough to make a judgement; if she stole something in those games, keep her in, otherwise, she can be pruned for the same reason as Dr. Wily.
*[[Roy Koopa]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
*[[Sackit]]: Should be removed. Without the ambiguity of appearing alongside an actual thief that Crooks had, these guys that can't actually steal anything don't really have a reason to be here.
*[[Sheep Rustlers]]: Makes sens--'''THERE ARE 9 THIEVES IN SUPERCADE'''
*[[Shy Guy]]: We're a little uncertain, if just for the same reason as Fuzzy. They do have a notable time they've stolen things, in Chapter 4 of Paper Mario 64! But they aren't really known for it, y'know?
*[[Spooky (enemy)]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. Kinda similar to the Frog Pirate situation, actually.
*[[Swindell]]: Provisional approval. In-universe, it's stated that he's a thief, but nobody's actually seen him steal anything. We think the implication is that he is ''trying'' to be a thief, and he's just... Really bad at it. But hey, we're judging if they're thieves at all, not their talents here.
*[[Tac]]: Should probably be removed. It's just another Smash character that happens to steal things in its source material, and while it ''can'' steal things in Smash as well... That's really not saying much.
*[[Tryclyde]]: ...We're unsure. He does steal a Magical Potion in Super Mario-kun, but he then proceeds to drop it ''right on top of him''. While we're not grading the quality of thievery as mentioned for Swindell, Swindell is stated to be a thief, and Tryclyde is ''not''.
*[[Waluigi]]: Makes sense. In his one role as a major antagonist in ''[[Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix]]'', he steals the Music Keys.
*[[Wario]]: Makes sense. If his debut involving him stealing a whole ''Castle'' doesn't do it for you, and if him constantly trying to steal Treasure in the ''Wario Land'' games doesn't convince you, and if him trying to steal ''wages'' in the ''Ware'' games doesn't do it for you either, ''Wario: Master of Disguise'' sees Wario's major new form in the game be '''''[[Thief Wario]]'''''. This is probably the easiest inclusion since Bandit.
*[[Wart]]: ...Should probably be excluded? Not only is his only actual moment where he steals something a kidnapping, it's only in Doki Doki Panic--that aspect doesn't factor in in ''SMB2''.
*[[Wendy O. Koopa]]: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
*[[Yangus]]: Should probably be removed. He's a bandit in his source material, but there's no stealing in [[Itadaki Street DS]] and [[Fortune Street]]--just a board game.
*[[Zeus Guy]]: Should be removed. He is a Bandit! ...But he doesn't steal, he just fights good.

If there's anything we missed (such as an obvious inclusion, or if Rouge actually does steal anything in the Olympic Games games), let us know! {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:30, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:Great work! I was the one added Marshadow and Robbird to this category — the former under the logic that Spectral Thief is its ''[[bulbapedia:Signature move|signature move]]'' and thus intrinsic to its identity. None of the Pokémon in ''Smash'' even use Thief, anyways. I also attempted to add [[:Category:Bandits]] as a subcategory to this, but 7feetunder shot that idea down. See my talk page for more information. Among your provisional approvals and uncertainties, I'd support removing all of them from this category aside from the Crook. If we end up adding Category:Bandits as a subcategory, we'd have to remove Swindell anyways. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 21:06, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:I think Sackit should stay; even if it doesn't ''function'' as a thief, that's clearly its occupation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:20, January 8, 2024 (EST)
::I think [[Shadow Mario]] should be classed as a thief. While an extension of Bowser Jr. probably, he's just known as the guy who has items he's not supposed to have. He steals FLUDD during the platforming segments and he releases Shine Sprites and Nozzles when caught (which is strongly suggested to have been stolen given the general plot of Super Mario Sunshine). He's a kidnapper yeah but it seems like just an extension of what he does. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:22, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:::While we're on the topic of subjects who ''should'' be in this category but aren't, what about the standard [[Boo]]? As an item in most ''Mario Kart'' games and most of their non-playable appearances in the ''Mario Party'' series, Boos steal items from players. Not to mention them stealing Mario and Luigi's [[Command Blocks]] in ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', and probably more appearances I'm not familiar with. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 22:39, January 8, 2024 (EST)
::::Yep, Boos should be there. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:48, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:To rapid-fire responses so this talkpage doesn't become a mess of like, 5 distinct replies with the same timestamp: Seeing as we allow the Chain Chomp category to be a subcategory to canines despite the fact Chain Chomps are merely overly-cartoony mushroom kingdom-ized dogs, we feel like Bandit being a subcategory to Thieves would be just fine. We personally still don't like the idea of including Marshadow (if for no other reason than we think the wiki's coverage of Pokemon is ''long'' overdue for a rework--there are so many redirects clogging up categories right now!), but we do at least ''see'' the through-line there. Perhaps we were a little harsh on Sackit and Crook--admittedly, the fact they lack any actual moves to steal things was a big no for us early on, but seeing as Swindell is here despite his lack of ''successfully'' stealing things, we guess that's a reasonable ''enough'' extension. Worst-case scenario, we can bring it up in a proposal. Why isn't Shadow Mario here, now that it's been brought up--especially since Rookie is here? And standard boos would make sense, though we think [[Red Boo]] would also work as the GCN Mario Party equivalent.<br>tl;dr: Sackit & Crook can potentially be up for a proposal just for them, we're leaning a little more on the positive now but we could see others disagreeing pretty handily. Shadow Mario, Boo, and Red Boo should probably be included. We still would prefer to exclude Marshadow, but we understand why they're here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:10, January 8, 2024 (EST)
::Though I didn't bring up in my original comment, I actually ''support'' removing Marshadow per your desire to purge ''Smash'' redirects from various categories. I was just explaining why I added it to this category in this first place. I also support adding Red Boo, but I was hasty and couldn't think of a way to mention it that wasn't clunky in my comment about adding Boo. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 23:23, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:So, should any of us be launching a proposal anytime soon? I told Swallow about this dissection, but he hasn't responded here nor his talk page. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 12:12, January 10, 2024 (EST)
::The main thing we think would be determining just ''what'' the proposal could vote on, especially the weird edge-cases such as Sackit that might require their own proposals after the fact. We think most people are fine enough to cull the various Smash article redirects as well as the characters we've mentioned sans Sackit & Crook, who could probably be included by default but if people have any issue we ''could'' hold a proposal for that. Other weird edge cases would be Swindell (canonically a thief, he just sucks tremendously at it and has never successfully stolen anything), Tryclyde (he does ''try'' to steal something, but only once, and it fails immediately), all the kidnappers (might be split into their own category), and Rogue (unclear information on the Olympic Games games means she might get culled for the same reasons as Dr. Wily). {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:49, January 11, 2024 (EST)
:::Yeah, that's a lot of moving parts to take into account. Maybe Doc von Schmeltwick could suggest an idea of what our scope should be — or even start the proposal herself? '''EDIT:''' I should also add that '''no, I don't think a category for kidnappers should be created'''. If [[Category talk:Hostages#Delete this category|a category for those who were kidnapped was too tangential to keep]], the other side of the coin likely isn't any better. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 22:49, January 11, 2024 (EST)
::::We didn't actually know a kidnappee category existed and was deleted. We don't really know ''what'' to do with the kidnappers with this information now, since we don't exactly think they should be here, but there's still a substantial quantity of them... Maybe something for the proposals, but we don't see it passing admittedly if the other end of the spectrum was long since canned. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:45, January 12, 2024 (EST)

I didn't think I would be required to post here, but what do we think about the recently added [[Ruddy Road Paint Guy]]? {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:42, January 11, 2024 (EST)
:Well, you were the one I explained this category's current state to in the first place. As for the Ruddy Road Paint Guy, he seems fine in this category to me. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:53, January 11, 2024 (EST)
::It's an character based around stealing--in this case paint. He fits. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:49, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Suggestion: Maybe [[Collector (Rabbid)]] would be added to this list as well? They steal Washing Machine parts in the [[Donkey Kong Adventure]] DLC of ''[[Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle]]''. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 14:57, January 11, 2024 (EDT)
:Makes sense to us; they're a (non-Bandit) enemy that is based on stealing things, which is just as good as the other ones here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:49, January 11, 2024 (EST)

I don't understand why Tac listed as "should probably be removed". It looks like a thief, it steals like a thief... I also don't understand why stuff like Sackits would be excluded just because they're not shown stealing. Having a crown and being called "king" is enough to be in [[:Category:Kings]]... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:17, January 11, 2024 (EST)
:For Tac, The main concern with that is just to clear out Smash-related redirects from the category. We've had second thoughts about removing Sackit, but he'll probably be in the proposal as a weird edge case to vote on. <small>ngl here we're this close to making a proposal to just cull non-Smash categories from all those Smash redirects bc after years of merges any category with a substantial Smash presence is just ''JUNKED''</small> {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:49, January 11, 2024 (EST)
::I'd be down for such a proposal. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 22:49, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Oh, I figured out what the Koopalings (most notably) stole: The [[kings]]' royal magic wands in ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. This brings me to my next point — Cam & Tori, your dissection is a good start, but we should be thinking about whether or not a character's thievery is intrinsic to their identity more. I recently engaged in [[Category talk:Pirates|a discussion]] on [[:Category:Pirates]] about the ''Mario Party 2'' playable characters' inclusion in the category, where I cited [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Trim requirements for elemental creatures categories|Swallow's proposal on elemental creatures categories]] as an example of trimming a category's definition to only listing examples where the attribute in question is common or intrinsic to a character's depiction. It's also arbitrary to classify Waluigi and Mouser as examples making sense, Fuzzy as a provisional approval, and Shy Guy as an uncertain case despite only citing a single game for all four of them. I get the former two are characters and latter two are species, but you're still only giving Bowser a provisional approval despite his many instances of theft. Again, arbitrary.

This isn't a personal attack on you, of course — I've just been thinking hard on this category and others, and this is the conclusion I've come to. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 21:14, January 12, 2024 (EST)
:From the top: We genuinely ''forgot'' the wands in Mario 3. Nintendo's repetitive callbacks to that game since 2011 have completely failed us yet again! While we feel like including every Koopaling individually is probably overkill, including the Koopalings article wouldn't hurt (yes, this decision is in of itself ''actually'' arbitrary; you could probably put including all the koopalings vs. just including their shared article in the proposal).<br>We don't really feel like Waluigi and Mouser are "arbitrary" since in them stealing things is involved in at least one of their major antagonistic roles (in the former case, his ''only'' antagonistic role without Wario involved); though we will say we understand lumping in Shy Guys and Fuzzies when they similarly only steal things in one game but it holds plot relevance in every situation. For the enemies, we're mostly just fuzzy on them because they're entire species where stealing isn't exactly intrinsic to them--Shy Guys are moreso pranksters, and Fuzzies... Fuzzies kinda lack characterization at all outside of the ''Paper'' games.<br>...Also Bowser should've totally been included, we feel like in retrospect it's probably not hurting too much to include him in specific when our main reason was concerns about category bloat, but lord knows he's already got a bunch of those, so it's probably not hurting to include him. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:45, January 12, 2024 (EST)
::Or we could just add [[:Category:Koopalings]] as a subcategory — there's a simple solution for you.<br>Even if these are major story roles we're talking about, I still feel like including characters who have committed theft in one to a small handful of appearances and it's not intrinsic to their general identity is creeping a little too close into "Category:Characters who have kissed Mario" territory for me.<br>Yeah, we'll probably have to include Bowser even if we were to go with my tighter definition. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 22:33, January 12, 2024 (EST)
:::I just remembered [[Talk:Super Duel Mode#Split the relevant objects|Doc von Schmeltwick's proposal on Super Duel Mode]] and came up with an idea: We could sort all the articles listed into multiple groups and propose which of them should be included in the tightened definition. Our base group would cover both thieving species like the Robbird and career thieves like Croco, Popple, and Ms. Mowz; we could then have another group for villains who primarily steal for a greater evil plan like Bowser, and so on. I understand if this is too nuanced a category for such an idea, though. I just want to stop going in circles with this discussion... [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 17:54, January 13, 2024 (EST)

These are my last words here before I leave the proposal on this category to another user: I'm sorry if my suggestions come across as overcorrection. In its current state, Category:Thieves is essentially an action-based category rather than a career-based one, something which has little precedence on this wiki — the most notable instance of such a precedence is the infamous [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Other#Category:Characters who have kissed Mario|Category:Characters who have kissed Mario]], as pointed out by Ultimate Mr. L. At the very least, making [[:Category:Bandits]] a subcategory would improve this category immensely. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 09:00, January 14, 2024 (EST)
:Ah, we only just saw this and the other messages, our apologies. They aren't that much of an overcorrection--we genuinely appreciate having a second eye look over our dissertation, because we feel like being the sole judge and executioner of the category is... A little too much for one body to handle. We wouldn't have noticed stuff like the Koopalings in SMB3 if not for that! Anyhoo, more on topic, we generally agree that we need to convert this category over to a ''career''-based category, rather than an ''action''-based one. The latter is... pretty ill-advised, since a lot of the most infamous categories have been made precisely so because they focused too much on the action, rather than if it's a part of their character. We think defining "career" as both the obvious of "characters known for being thieves", but including species known for theft as well (and of course, adding Bandit and Little Mouser as subcategories). The only thing we're fuzzy on is "villains who primarily steal for a greater evil plan", since as far as we can tell (we could've missed things, of course!), every villain that does that ''already'' meets one of the other two categories (either they're a career thief, or they're a member of a "thief" species).<br>We could potentially pen up a proper proposal sometime soon-ish, if that's fine with everyone else and nobody else wants to take it. With everything said above, we think we have a fairly good idea of what pages we should prune and what subcategories to add; and more nuanced edge cases, we can leave for future proposals if need be. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:01, January 14, 2024 (EST)
::Well, "last words" was a bit of an exaggeration, but thanks for all your hard work, Cam & Tori! By "career" thieves, I am specifically referring to characters whose '''primary occupation''' is thievery — they don't do it as part of their career, it ''is'' their career, if you get what I'm saying. Whoever launches the proposal, I'll be sure to vote on it! [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 23:18, January 14, 2024 (EST)
:::This used to share a category with Bandits, actually. I don't think it should be made a subcategory, as some derivatives don't seem to be thieves. Also, the Koopalings ''did'' steal the wands in their first outing from what I can tell. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:39, January 20, 2024 (EST)

Regarding Rouge, even though I don't think she actually steals anything in the Olympics, those games do talk about the fact she's a thief and it's a major part of her character so I feel like you could keep her for similar reasons to Swindell or Sackit. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:53, January 15, 2024 (EST)

Sorry it took so gosh darned long to get around to this, jeez louise! Before we draft a proposal, now's as good a time as any to recap basically everything, and ask if it would make sense to include the following articles to prune as part of the proposal:
* '''Needless redirect:''' Dr. Wily, King Dedede, Marshadow, Tac
* '''Stole once, but not a thief''': Antasma, Fuzzy, Tryclyde
* '''Kidnapper, not really a thief''': Frog Pirate, Itsunomanika Heihō, ''(all the individual Koopaling articles)'', Spooky (enemy), Wart
* '''Thief in source material, but not a thief in Mario material:''' Rouge, Yangus
* '''Not even a thief???:''' Birdo, Fluffy
And to add these:
* Koopaling subcategory
* Bandit subcategory
* Little Mouser subcategory
* [[Collector (Rabbid)]]
* [[Boo]], [[Big Boo (character)]], and [[Red Boo]] (thanks to Mario Party)
* [[Ecks]]
If anyone has any objections, speak now, or hold your peace until the proposal in a bit. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:19, December 30, 2024 (EST)
:Koopalings stole the wands in SMB3... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:23, December 30, 2024 (EST)
::We know! We would prefer to add the Koopaling subcategory over just listing them all individually if we could help it, personally--hence, we add the subcategory, but prune the individual articles. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:24, December 30, 2024 (EST)
:I stand by my above comment about how keeping Rouge in the category makes sense since they do talk about her being a thief in Mario material even if she never actually steals anything on-screen, much like some other characters in the category. Not familiar enough with Fortune Street to be sure about whether Yangus should stay, though. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:41, December 30, 2024 (EST)
What about [[Ecks]]? He steals [[Battle Plug]]s during the battle against the [[Extension Corps]]. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 15:31, December 30, 2024 (EST)
:Didn't know about him, but he feels like an obvious inclusion. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:36, December 30, 2024 (EST)
:It won't change anything, but I'm sure the Koopalings also stole stuff in various cartoon episodes. For example, [[Crimes R Us]] has them robbing banks. --[[User:Cheat-master30|Cheat-master30]] ([[User talk:Cheat-master30|talk]]) 18:14, December 30, 2024 (EST)
:Just a heads up, we plan to start writing up the proposal around 3PM EST-ish tomorrow (so, in about 12 hours and 30 minutes), so if there's any other objections or things we missed, say them now. The only thing is we think we might have two separate support options on top of the ones for the pre-existing edge case for Rouge and Yangus, one for keeping individual koopalings and adding their subcategory and one for only keeping the subcategory, as we do realize that there's a strong enough argument for the individual inclusions, but we do still think they have a habit of clogging up the category personally. We realize that's more of a "personal preference" reason, though, hence we want to provide the option. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 02:31, December 31, 2024 (EST)
::I'll just take the opportunity to bring up [[Sackit]] again. It looks like a thief, it's name alludes to it being a thief, but it shouldn't be characterized as such because it doesn't steal things on screen? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:24, December 31, 2024 (EST)
:::Honestly, after almost a year's worth of time, we dunno what exactly we were on about with Sackit and Crook. Just because they don't physically steal things doesn't make them fairly obvious inclusions, honestly. They're sticking around no matter what, unless someone else makes a proposal down the road to exclude them. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:41, December 31, 2024 (EST)
::::I must ask, how is Rouge an "edge case" if Sackit and Crook aren't? She's in the same boat of clearly being a thief despite not stealing anything on-screen. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:16, December 31, 2024 (EST)
:::::Mostly the degree of separation of being from another series, which given we're already pruning a few crossover characters (thanks, Smash redirects), we can imagine causing some confusion. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:53, December 31, 2024 (EST)

==Tighten Category:Thieves==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|passed|1-8-0-1-0|Remove & add mentioned articles, add Rouge/Yangus, no individual Koopalings}}
Through rain, snow, tragedy, personal growth, identity revelations, and whatever else 2024 threw at us we forgot in the flotsam and jetsam, ''we are finally here to say:'' So, uh. What's up with the Thieves category, huh? It's kinda messy.

To summarize a '''LONG, LONG''' conversation from just narrowly under a year ago, this category has been in a rather confusing state for a bit now. Namely, redirects from bygone days of Smash coverage, characters who only stole things one time and aren't thieves, kidnappers, and even characters that aren't actually thieves at all. All while excluding a few characters and even species who, for all intents and purposes, feel like natural shoe-ins for either being included overtly, or as subcategories.

You can read all the reasons in the conversations above, but to give a quick recap of what we want to do here:
* Remove these articles from the category: [[Antasma]], [[Birdo]], [[Dr. Wily]], [[Fluffy]], [[Frog Pirate]], [[Fuzzy]], [[Itsunomanika Heihō]], [[King Dedede]], [[Marshadow]], [[Spooky (enemy)]], [[Wart]], [[Tac]]
* Add these as subcategories: [[:Category:Koopalings]], [[:Category:Bandits]], [[:Category:Little Mousers]]
* Add these articles to the category: [[Boo]], [[Big Boo (character)]], [[Collector (Rabbid)]], [[Ecks]], [[Red Boo]]

There are two edge cases worth noting as well:
* Part of this proposal is to help de-clutter the category as a whole; thusly, since we're already adding the Koopalings as a sub-category thanks to ''SMB3'', is it necessary to retain the individual articles?
* [[Rouge]] and [[Yangus]] are thieves in their source material, but never steal anything in their ''Mario''-related appearances.

We've included some options for how to handle these accordingly, and you can feel free to multi-vote on them as you deem fit. Or don't!

'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 14, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Remove & add mentioned articles, add Rouge/Yangus and individual Koopalings===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option. While we personally could do without the individual koopalings, we acknowledge some people would want them in here.

===Remove & add mentioned articles, add Rouge/Yangus, no individual Koopalings===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option. We personally feel like Rouge and Yangus aren't hurting anyone, even if they're mostly thieves by proxy of their source material. And obviously, every other article, we've given our rationale for its inclusion/exclusion; koopalings would be a bit redundant.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal. I think it's best to include Rouge and Yangus for consistency with the Sackit and Crook.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Sure.
#{{User|Mario}} I would just limit the category to characters that are known for stealing such as bandits, pirates, ninjas, etc. which the proposal is on the right track for. Still not sure about the Koopalings since their theft feels like just an extension of their trouble-making rather than something that's character-defining (compare to Little Mousers), but I'm not really picky about this either.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} this is my favorite type of proposal ever, by the way.
#{{User|LittleLum}} This is a good idea.

===Remove & add mentioned articles, add individual Koopalings, no Rouge/Yangus===

===Remove & add mentioned articles, no Rouge/Yangus or individual Koopalings===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Tertiary option. We could just as easily understand someone wanting to omit Rouge and Yangus since we're omitting characters like Tac, but to us, it's no big deal. To be honest, though, we mostly just want ''any'' change from... The current state of things.

===Do Nothing===

===Comments===
{{@|Mario}} — I absolutely agree with your sentiment, but this proposal is still a good start. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 13:28, January 1, 2025 (EST)