Editing Category talk:Super Mario enemies

<center>'''''Note:''' The following discussion and proposal were moved from the deleted talk page of "Category:Koopa Troop".''</center>

==Members==
{{talk}}
This might be a dumb question, but how do we know that ''all'' of these enemies are a part of the Koopa Troop and aren't just creatures that happen to be hostile to Mario and co.? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
:Wow, this category's a mess. It's basically just "Category:Mario Enemies" with a misleading name. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 02:46, 14 December 2015 (EST)
::Bumping, but yeah, shouldn't we just rename this to "Mario Enemies"? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:34, 19 January 2016 (EST)
::Furthermore, we have [[:Category:Wario Enemies]], [[:Category:Donkey Kong Enemies]], and [[:Category:Yoshi Enemies]] as well, but no Category:Mario Enemies as of this post. We should rename this to Category:Mario Enemies and move all the Mario subseries enemy categories (such as Mario & Luigi Series Enemies, Paper Mario Series Enemies, New Super Mario Bros. Series Enemies, Super Mario World Enemies etc. as subcategories of this). Meanwhile, we should rename the beginning sentence in [[:Category:Enemies]] to "Enemies throughout the series provided per [[MarioWiki:Coverage|MarioWiki's coverage]]. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 19:03, 19 January 2016 (EST)

== Do something about this category ==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|passed|1-11-3-0|rename category}}
Assuming that literally every enemy that fights against Mario is a part of [[Bowser]]'s legion is speculative as best and pure fancruft at worst. At it stands, this category is just bad, plain and simple. With that said, there are several options that can be taken here.

'''Option 1: Delete this category'''

It's certainly the most blunderbuss option, but it would get the job done. This option would result in the category being deleted and completely removed from all articles, without anything to replace it. Inelegant, to be sure.

'''Option 2: Move this category to {{fake link|Category:Mario Enemies}}'''

As suggested above by Bazooka Mario, since we currently have [[:Category:Yoshi Enemies]], [[:Category:Donkey Kong Enemies]], and [[:Category:Wario Enemies]], but no obvious parallel for the Mario enemies. This option involves moving this category to "Category:Mario Enemies", and subsequently updating all links and inclusions. Note that this would still involve removing the category from a majority of articles: per [[MarioWiki:Categories#Category trees|MarioWiki:Categories]], the game-specific enemy categories would become subcategories of this one, and per [[MarioWiki:Categories#Placement on articles|MarioWiki:Categories]] again, it would be unnecessary to include the broad category alongside the more specific categories.

'''Option 3: Trim this category massively'''

There ''are'' enemies that have been definitely shown to be a part of Bowser's army, and once upon a time, there was a similar category for [[Wart]]'s army, the [[8 bits]], before it was [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Category:8_bits&action=edit&redlink=1 unceremoniously deleted]. This option would involve keeping the category as is, but removing every article whose subject isn't obviously a part of the Koopa Troop. It would also include both enemies and bosses.

'''Option 4: Do nothing'''

I'm including this for fairness. This option would involve nothing happening and nothing being updated, removed, or otherwise changed. I would consider this to be disadvantageous for the wiki.

These are all of the options that I would consider to be reasonable (though I'm all-ears for suggestions). I am personally vouching for option 2 (move the category), if only because the wiki already has [[:Category:Mario Games]] and <s>[[:Category:Mario Games]]</s>[[:Category:Mario Characters]]. Though there also isn't a category for Mario species, items, objects, allies, and locations, I believe that's mostly because nobody had pressed the issue beforehand. 

'''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 30, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Option 1: Delete this category===
#{{User|3D Player 2010}} there is no way to trim or move this category in a way that eliminates the arbitrariness in the selection of what is featured in the category. The least arbitrary option is to simply delete the category.

===Option 2: Move this category to {{fake link|Category:Mario Enemies}}===
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} None of the other solutions seem to make sense.
#{{User|Alex95}} Vote of support
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Option 1 came as a shock. That is 695 PAGES! plus a subcategory. However, this option is a little better than option 3, as it would mean going through the 695 pages and checking out whether or not they should be in the category, and that is assuming Koopa Troop would be the best name for the category. For me, option 2 would be the best approach. Though, if it does passes, we may have to change some other categories to reflect them being Mario enemies (I am talking about those in the Mario series). And this category is a huge thing. It would be nice to break it down a little, but it can't be done if it is named Koopa Troop. Though, I don't mind it being big.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per all.
#{{User|Lord Bowser}} This would be the least extreme change overall, and a good compromise. Per all.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.
#{{User|Luigi 64DD}} Per all.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} Per all.

===Option 3: Trim this category===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I think that this is a decently-useful category to have, as there are many enemies that are explicitly not part of the Koopa Troop, like many enemies from the RPGs and Mario Land games, as well as some that just seem to be feral.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Despite the precedence against it with the 8 bits, I do think there's merit to trimming the category as well.
#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} Per all. We shouldn't forget that the Koopa Troop does exist.

===Option 4: Do nothing===

===Comments===
Also Time Turner, did you mean "[[:Category:Mario Games]] and [[:Category:Mario Characters]]"? {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:43, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
:Yes, that is exactly what I meant. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 23:44, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
The matter is more interesting than it seems, as it reflects how at Nintendo they apparently refuse to clearly define the Koopa Troop in recent times. To explain it better, you can have a look at {{file link|SMCE pages 88 89.png|these pages of the ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia''}}, that showed a clear organization of the Koopa Troop, with the enemies categorized so it was possible to know if they were part of it and of what subgroup they pertained. And the latter [http://i.imgur.com/lNNqFjJ.jpg ''Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia''], even if it no longer described the organization of the army, still used the same categories so it was possible to know if an enemy belonged to the troop or not. But in the two recent books of this kind, the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' and the ''Super Mario Pia'', such a categorization is missing, and the Koopa Troop's organization isn't described, being barely mentioned in some bios. Essentially, it looks like at Nintendo they don't want to define the Koopa Troop in detail anymore, or at least with the detail that was seen in the '90s, and the difficulties we are facing here are the same we are having in describing the current Koopa Troop. While the second option is valid regardless of this issue - at this point we really need a ''Mario Enemies'' category - I wonder what we should do about the Koopa Troop, considering how vaguely it is described in the current material.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:49, 19 July 2017 (EDT)

I would like to point out the fallacy of moving this to the enemies category, as there are ''many'' enemies that aren't affiliated with the Koopa Troop, such as enemies in the Mario Land and Wario Land games, Donkey Kong enemies, Wario World enemies, enemies from many factions in the Mario RPGs, Super Mario Bros. 2 enemies, and so on. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:06, 20 July 2017 (CT)
:The category's going to be retooled to fit its new purpose (which wouldn't even cover [[:Category:Wario Enemies|Wario enemies]] or [[:Category:Donkey Kong Enemies|Donkey Kong enemies]] in the first place). Right now, it encompasses such a large number of Mario enemies that it makes sense to reappropriate it. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 17:19, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
::Oh, I hadn't noticed it said ''Mario'' enemies, sorry. But what about the RPG enemies that are against the Koopa Troop, like the Smithy Gang and X-Nauts? {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:23, 20 July 2017 (CT)
:::While the category currently doesn't encompass ''every'' Mario enemy, it's basically been used as a "Mario enemies" category with a few exceptions. If this category is taken at face value as the list of Bowser's minions, then most of the enemies in this category have no place being here in the slightest. I suspect that it's a remnant of a time where the Koopa Troop was still being described as a "[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Koopa_Troop&oldid=1389007 militaristic dictatorship]" In any case, if the category is moved, all of that will be cleared up. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 17:31, 20 July 2017 (EDT)