Editing Category talk:Power-ups

==Cleaning up this category==
I've noticed that several entries in this category and its subcategories seem be stretching the definition of "power-up". For example, there's the [[1-Up Mushroom]], which only gives the player an extra life and doesn't power up the user in any way; or the [[Megamorph Belt]], which is only used by [[Bowser]] in his role as an antagonistic NPC in ''[[Mario Party DS]]'' and therefore isn't a power-up by definition as the player never uses it. To me, a lot of the misuse seems like poorly thought out choices from the early days of this wiki that go unnoticed as our standards change. Other misuse, however, is probably just [[:Category:Flower power-ups]] and [[:Category:Size-changing power-ups]] being subcategories of this when they'd make more sense as seperate categories named something like {{fake link|Category:Fire Flowers}} (even though most of them aren't fire-based—it's the best name I could think of) and {{fake link|Category:Size-changing items}} respectively.

In preparation for remedying this category's state with a proposal, I've put together [[User:SolemnStormcloud/Sandbox#Category:Power-ups (cleanup)|a dissection of this category and its subcategories]] in my sandbox. I've divided the entries by how I want to handle the articles, with subgrouping for what kinds of articles the categories are being applied to. Before I start preparing the proposal, I'd like some feedback on how to handle certain items in "Could go either way" first—mainly the character caps from ''[[Super Mario 64 DS]]'', the [[Wonder Flower]], the [[boomerang]], and [[meat]]. (I'll likely have the ''Mario Party'' items and non-video game items as voting options.) Perhaps some items I've labeled as uncertainties or removals could be contested as well. Deciding how to treat the subcategories can happen in a later proposal—that'd just overcomplicate the one I currently have planned. {{User:SolemnStormcloud/sig}} 19:34, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:For my two cents...
:*Character caps - Probably keep these. If one of our working definitions of a power-up is an item that gives you a special ability via some transformation that you can lose by taking damage, these fit the bill.
:*Wonder Flower - Remove this. The Wonder Flower itself is not a power-up and just exists to trigger whatever goofy mechanic the devs wanted in a level. Sometimes that includes a form change, but I also wouldn't consider any of these power-ups in the traditional sense. Even if you take damage, you don't lose it - some like [[Wubba Mario]] even have a Small Mario equivalent.
:*Mario Party candies - Remove these. Mario Party doesn't have traditional power-up mechanics, these are just flashy transformations during your turn to communicate that there's a special effect going on.
:*Non-video game items - Remove these. Some items in other media are intentionally portrayed similarly to the game's power-ups, but power-ups are specifically a game mechanic so it makes sense to organize them from a mechanical perspective rather than a lore perspective.
:*Boomerang - Probably remove this. The only thing it has going for it versus something like the potted Piranha Plant is that the e-Reader card can put it in the inventory, but SMB3's inventory also has non-power-up items like the Warp Whistle, Anchor, Music Box etc.
:*Meat - Keep this. It's analogous to several items from the platformers in a gameplay section that's identical to them.
:I have no objections to anything on the removals list. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:01, February 6, 2025 (EST)
::Alright! I've updated my sandbox per your feedback, and I should have a proposal ready in a little bit. {{User:SolemnStormcloud/sig}} 14:20, February 6, 2025 (EST)

==Tighten this category and its subcategories==
{{TPP}}
Per the discussion above. To summarize, this category and its subcategories has been burdened with entries that can only tenuously be described as "power-ups" (and that's being ''generous'' in some cases). These include items that have no direct effect on the player character, items that are only used by villainous NPCs and not the player, items from non-video game media, etc. This proposal will tighten the definition of this category and its subcategories to one mostly based on what's included in our [[list of power-ups]].

For a list of what articles to keep in this category and what to remove from it, see [[User:SolemnStormcloud/Sandbox|my sandbox]].

'''Proposer''': {{User|SolemnStormcloud}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal. also, it's weird how we have a list of power-ups and a power-up category, but no regular {{Fake link|Power-up}} page, isn't it?

====Oppose====

====Comments on tightening the categories====
@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 ==Tighten this category and its subcategories==
 {{TPP}}
-Per the discussion above. To summarize, this category and its subcategories have been burdened with entries that can only tenuously be described as "power-ups" (and that's being ''generous'' in some cases). These include items that have no direct effect on the player character, items that are only used by villainous NPCs and not the player, items from non-video game media, etc. This proposal will tighten the definition of this category and its subcategories to one mostly based on what's included in our [[list of power-ups]].
+Per the discussion above. To summarize, this category and its subcategories has been burdened with entries that can only tenuously be described as "power-ups" (and that's being ''generous'' in some cases). These include items that have no direct effect on the player character, items that are only used by villainous NPCs and not the player, items from non-video game media, etc. This proposal will tighten the definition of this category and its subcategories to one mostly based on what's included in our [[list of power-ups]].
 For a list of what articles to keep in this category and what to remove from it, see [[User:SolemnStormcloud/Sandbox|my sandbox]].
-'''EDIT:''' Per concerns raised by Salmancer, an option to keep the non-game items but otherwise remove everything else I've listed as "To be removed" has been added.
 '''Proposer''': {{User|SolemnStormcloud}}<br>
 '''Deadline''': February 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT
-====Tighten definition to purely game power-ups====
+====Support====
+#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
 #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal.
 #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
 #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal. also, it's weird how we have a list of power-ups and a power-up category, but no regular {{Fake link|Power-up}} page, isn't it?
-#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all. Mario Party items are not power-ups.
-<s>#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Primary choice; per proposal.</s>
-====Tighten definition, but include non-game items====
+====Oppose====
-#{{User|Salmancer}} Power ups are so iconic to the Mario franchise that no longform adaption excludes them, and ''[[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]]'' makes it a point to define what a power-up is within it when the film didn't have to. Given this, it would be weird to say a power-up ''must'' be from a video game. (Besides, what if movie #4 does make a new power-up because an original better communicates Mario's emotional state, or makes one to implement the temptation tropes of the venom symbiote? I wouldn't want to need a second proposal to re-expand the definition to something that was already true.)
-#{{User|SComic}} I feel like the idea and naming of "Power-Ups" have expanded beyond just a naming for a videogame mechanic. They use the same terminology in the ''[[Super Mario-kun|Manga]] and ''[[Super Mario Bros. (film)|Mov]]''[[The Super Mario Bros. Movie|ies]]'', so why do they not count?! They are items that power up mario, they are clearly based on existing videogame power ups, it just doesn't really make sense to me. The wiki has been using the idea of names as what to include in '''''[[Bomb (Paper Mario series)|certain articles,]]''''' (though I don't necessarily agree with it...) Consistency is always first. It looks like a power-up, Functions like a power-up, Called a power-up, the only real difference is that it doesn't actually power up in a video game. Um, anyway, if it isn't obvious, I think we should include the non-videogame power-ups.
-#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} <s>Secondary choice.</s> This may lead to some edge cases we'll have to deal with (e.g. [[Super Sushi]], I don't recall that being treated akin to the games' power-ups), but I can live with this.
-#{{User|Mario}} I don't think there is a strong case made for excluding items appearing outside of video games. In most cases, it's relatively easy to tell, or at least one should ask: if this item were in a game, would it be reasonably interpreted as a power-up? I hope it doesn't end up inviting arguments on what item in a manga constitutes a power-up or not.
-#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
-====Do nothing====
-<s>#{{User|Salmancer}} I'm splitting hairs on this, but the ''[[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]]'' defines power-ups in non-game contexts as power-ups, so ''[[Super Mario-kun]]''{{'}}s additions to the arsenal shouldn't be ignored just because they happen to come from a source more obscure to an English speaking audience than that film.</s>
 ====Comments on tightening the categories====
-seeing your sandbox, maybe we could change Category:Flight power-ups into Category:Mobility power-ups instead? that would cover stuff like Cat Mario and Cloud and Bubble and all the ones that give you better platforming abilities without making you fly. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 16:44, February 6, 2025 (EST)
-:Admittedly, I think this category's subcategories clutter things up by making articles go into two or more categories when just Category:Power-ups would suffice, but your idea sounds great! I'm still not sure how to handle the subcategories yet—I'm also not a fan of how Category:Invincibility power-ups covers both power-ups that make the player invincible for the duration of the item and ones that allow them to enter a temporary, invulnerable state—but if we want to keep them, I'll make sure to remember your idea! {{User:SolemnStormcloud/sig}} 17:27, February 6, 2025 (EST)
-{{@|Salmancer}} — That's not an entirely fair comparison as the ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie''{{'}}s power-ups are all taken from the games with no new ones to the movie, but if you'd like an option to keep the non-game items, I'd be open to it. {{User:SolemnStormcloud/sig}} 00:44, February 7, 2025 (EST)
-:There are probably items in manga and whatnot that are functionally powerups and are clearly based on video game powerups so I do think some items like [[Great Mushroom]] and [[Reitō Power-up Kinoko]] should stay. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:54, February 7, 2025 (EST)