Editing Category talk:Parasites

==Figure out what to do with this category==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|passed|12-1-1|Delete}}
This category makes me sick, and not with malaria or a tapeworm. No, I'm sick with Flurritis, spread to me via a kiss from [[Flurrie]]. Her offspring, a genetic clone of her, is currently growing in my left lung. I won't die (though only having one lung will make me even less athletic than I already am), but I'll be forced to use Gale Force at any moment to breathe the Flurrie clone out, and I don't know how I'd explain it if it happened at work. Especially if she starts kissing my coworkers to continue the life cycle.

Obviously, Flurrie is not a parasite. And while she's the most egregious example, the vast majority of the subjects under this category aren't parasites, either (while [[Fuzzy|Fuzzies]] are described as parasites in some games, they aren't really and should fall under how we handle "brainwashing" vs "mind control"). Instead, as the category states: "They often attach themselves to other creatures, typically to attack or hinder abilities. They may also use this to replenish their own health." Okay, so this is really just Category:Leech. But then there are a couple actual parasites that don't do this, like the [[Belly Blech]]. And don't get me started on the subcategories of Vampires and Viruses (specifically for the ''Dr. Mario'' series ones).

We need to do something about this category. Here are the voting options: 

'''Delete the category.''' This will delete the category entirely, though [[:Category:Vampires]] and [[:Category:Viruses]] will remain, just not as subcategories to anything. Voting for this indicates you see no need for either an actual parasites category (the biological term) or a leech category (HP/FP/etc suckers).

'''Rename the category and exclusively cover "leech" subjects.''' This would keep the category mostly as it is now, with subjects that don't fit the gameplay definition of "[attaching] themselves to other creatures" being removed. [[:Category:Vampires]] would remain a subcategory, but not [[:Category:Viruses]]. I'm not fully sure on the name yet, so let me know suggestions in the comments if this voting option gets support. And while members of the wiki Discord have mentioned maybe making a category for moves instead, some enemies don't have named moves with pages.

'''Do nothing.'''

I was considering having an option to keep the category with the same name but only use it for actual parasites in the series. I just don't think there are enough definitive parasites in the series to warrant one; I tried going through this in my sandbox and it only gave me a headache. A lot of discourse would ensue about which ''Bowser's Inside Story'' enemies count too, probably (or at least there was a debate I had with myself while doing sandbox stuff). If people do want this category, though, let me know in the comments.

Going along with the above, there would be another voting option added alongside it. This option would use the biological meaning of "parasite" for this category but also make a separate "leech" category. 

'''Proposer''': {{User|Technetium}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>February 24, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> Closed early on February 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Delete category===
#{{User|Technetium|Madame Flurrie}}: As proposer, or rather, ''from'' proposer. How dare I be called a parasite?! And I don't want to be lumped in with leeches, either. Some recover HP when they attack, some recover something else, some don't recover anything at all...it boggles my mind! I simply cannot comprehend how such a category would be useful to our wiki's dear readers. 
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option; this category is currently stuck between being both a category for parasites as a species, and characters with status leeching abilities, and as a result, it kind of does a terrible job of being both. Is a given article in this category a literal parasite as a creature, or a parasite in the sense it can siphon HP? Unless you click the article, you literally won't know which is which, which is kind of a fundamental failure for a category. EDIT: Now only option, given the lack of valid parasites.
#{{User|Sparks}} Uncouth parasites! Thou must be rid of! (Per all)
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i don't know, flurrie seems pretty wealthy, you sure she's not a parasite? there's gotta be someone she's exploiting. anyways, this category doesn't really help you find anything from anything else, so i don't see the point in it.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal before I catch Flurritis too.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Let's just exterminate this category before the infection gets worse. Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} "I decided to go off and be sick" - Jeremy Clarkson
#{{User|Mario}} Unless there are enough creatures MarioWiki covers that is demonstrably based on literal parasites (e.g. mosquito based enemy, a tapeworm based enemy), this category shouldn't be here.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per everyone, especially Mario and Technetium

===Rename and tighten category===
<s> #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; personally, we'd prefer an category for biological parasites over the game mechanic, but that's mostly personal preference.</s>

===Do nothing===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I see nothing wrong with a category for hurtful tagalongs.

===Comments===
{{@|Camwoodstock}} Which subjects would you include in a theoretical biological parasites category? When I tried going through, I only came up with [[Belly Blech]], [[Scratchy the 'Fro Bug]] (but does it count if it's a wig and not real hair?), and...I think that might be it actually. As for possible candidates not currently in the category, they were BIS related for the most part. There are enemies such as the [[Scutlet (boss)]] that are explicitly foreign to Bowser's body, but would it count as a parasite if it got there accidentally and not as an inherent part of its life cycle? And then there are enemies such as [[Stonk]]s, who are hurting Bowser's body and seem abnormal, but are they parasites or normal body components that got corrupted by the Dark Star? Does this even matter necessarily, more so the fact they're harmful to the host? Yeah, I'm a biology major in college, how could you tell? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:34, February 10, 2025 (EST)
:Honestly, now that you mention it, unless you count the Scutlet (both boss and enemy articles), we aren't sure there are enough Parasites to warrant a specific category, and the two valid entries (Belly Blech and Scratchy the 'Fro Bug) would already fit in the insect category... Hmm. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:17, February 10, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} It's more so that this category isn't consistent on what it's supposed to be about, and the current name could be misleading. If you mean "hurtful tagalongs" as in enemies like Fuzzies, there is the "rename and tighten category" voting option. Just not sure what you mean by this exactly, which proves the point about this category being unclear. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 18:45, February 10, 2025 (EST)

Speaking of the "rename and tighten category" option, should [[:Category:Vampires]] still be a subcategory of a leech category, especially if we're taking a gameplay approach to it? It might be better to just keep it as its separate thing, and if a vampire is also a leech gameplay wise, then the subject can just have both categories. Not sure... [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 18:48, February 10, 2025 (EST)
:"Leech" as a noun is a type of annelid, not anything that sucks parasitically. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:36, February 10, 2025 (EST)
::Fair point. I just can't think of any other name… feel free to post any ideas you come up with. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 21:00, February 10, 2025 (EST)
:::"Parasites" is already serviceable for creatures that act parasitic from a gameplay perspective. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:03, February 10, 2025 (EST)
::::I think "attaches to character, does something harmful" doesn't quite land as a useful group to describe as "parasites". Some of the oddballs that would enter under that kind of definition include [[Mini Goomba]] and [[Itsunomanika Heihō]], of which the latter doesn't really fit the word. But if you narrow it down to "has to benefit from being attached to the player character", you then exclude [[Grim Leecher]], which wouldn't make sense at all. If you try to add "has to affect the character's body" to save Grim Leecher, then "parasite" stops being a gameplay category because now there's a lore component and we're back to where this proposal starts from. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 22:23, February 10, 2025 (EST)
:::::"Sticks to you and causes a disadvantage" seems a perfectly fine criterion to me. And is basically the current setup. And "parasite" doesn't necessarily mean "OBLIGATE parasite;" Mosquitoes are considered parasites, but they won't drop dead from not sucking blood, they're capable of drinking nectar and just use blood to get protein to make eggs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:31, February 10, 2025 (EST)
::::::So it turns out there are differing opinions on whether mosquitoes count as parasites or not, and I initially thought they didn't, but there might be two different definitions of parasite?https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/58169/why-is-a-mosquito-feeding-on-human-blood-not-a-parasite
::::::Probably a better source on this out there and I'd have to do more research, but if there's two definitions that are commonly mixed up, what would we even use for the wiki then? It's just a mess all around. Also, why are subjects like the [[Game bug]]s in this, they don't match the biological definition(s?) or gameplay function. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:47, February 10, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 #{{User|Mario}} Unless there are enough creatures MarioWiki covers that is demonstrably based on literal parasites (e.g. mosquito based enemy, a tapeworm based enemy), this category shouldn't be here.
 #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per everyone, especially Mario and Technetium
-#{{User|PaperSplash}} I just don't see the need for it. The only ''Mario''-related subject I could find that's explicitly described as a "parasite" in English in-game is Fuzzies in ''The Thousand-Year Door'''s tattle log, and even that turned out to be a localization addition.
 ===Rename and tighten category===
-#{{User|Arend}} I'd prefer it if it were renamed "Parasitic creatures" (as it would cover a broader array of subjects, whereas simply "{{wp|Leech}}es" is even more specific than "{{wp|Parasitism|Parasites}}"; with such a name as "Parasitic creatures", you wouldn't need to remove Viruses from it either, as this makes the parasitism less literal, and it'd make more sense for vampires to stay there that way too), but regardless of that, a bit of a tightening is sorely needed. [[Special:Diff/3724258|We're considering Flurrie a parasite now]] ''purely'' because of [[Lip Lock|one single draining attack]] she has?! Didn't we have proposals before to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Trim requirements for elemental creatures categories|tighten elemental categories and]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/64#Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies|remove any entries when they only had a single attack of that element]]?! I honestly thought whoever added Flurrie to that Parasite category simply hated her, not that they genuinely thought she would pass an ''actual'' parasite for that one move!
 <s> #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; personally, we'd prefer an category for biological parasites over the game mechanic, but that's mostly personal preference.</s>
@@ Line 54: / Line 52: @@
 ::::I think "attaches to character, does something harmful" doesn't quite land as a useful group to describe as "parasites". Some of the oddballs that would enter under that kind of definition include [[Mini Goomba]] and [[Itsunomanika Heihō]], of which the latter doesn't really fit the word. But if you narrow it down to "has to benefit from being attached to the player character", you then exclude [[Grim Leecher]], which wouldn't make sense at all. If you try to add "has to affect the character's body" to save Grim Leecher, then "parasite" stops being a gameplay category because now there's a lore component and we're back to where this proposal starts from. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 22:23, February 10, 2025 (EST)
 :::::"Sticks to you and causes a disadvantage" seems a perfectly fine criterion to me. And is basically the current setup. And "parasite" doesn't necessarily mean "OBLIGATE parasite;" Mosquitoes are considered parasites, but they won't drop dead from not sucking blood, they're capable of drinking nectar and just use blood to get protein to make eggs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:31, February 10, 2025 (EST)
-::::::So it turns out there are differing opinions on whether mosquitoes count as parasites or not (I initially thought they didn't), but there might be two different definitions of parasite?https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/58169/why-is-a-mosquito-feeding-on-human-blood-not-a-parasite
+::::::So it turns out there are differing opinions on whether mosquitoes count as parasites or not, and I initially thought they didn't, but there might be two different definitions of parasite?https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/58169/why-is-a-mosquito-feeding-on-human-blood-not-a-parasite
 ::::::Probably a better source on this out there and I'd have to do more research, but if there's two definitions that are commonly mixed up, what would we even use for the wiki then? It's just a mess all around. Also, why are subjects like the [[Game bug]]s in this, they don't match the biological definition(s?) or gameplay function. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:47, February 10, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::I know not, as I know naught (about WarioWare - also yes I came up with that phrase then and there). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:55, February 10, 2025 (EST)
-...to be honest, if it weren't for [[Special:Diff/3724258|the edit that added the category in the first place]] justifying the inclusion purely for the [[Lip Lock]] attack, I'd think someone added the category ''just'' because they hated Flurrie ''that'' much. (And to be frank, I find it a stretch by even ''that'' definition, as it's just an HP-draining attack. Does that make Hitmonchan from ''Pokémon'' a parasite just because it can learn Drain Punch?) {{User:Arend/sig}} 01:29, February 14, 2025 (EST)
-:Addendum: This particular edit wholesale reminds me too much of certain monsters and characters being classified as a certain elemental creature (e.g. ice creatures) ''purely'' because they have ONE attack of that element. And we've had [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Trim requirements for elemental creatures categories|quite a few]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/64#Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies|proposals]] about combatting this issue! Madame Flurrie is only ''one'' example of something being classified as a parasite or leech for ONE single draining attack, who knows what other non-parasitic or non-leech-ish creatures are being misplaced for the same reasons? {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:29, February 14, 2025 (EST)
-::I'd assume "creatures who are able to drain HP and add to their own" would be the primary utility of such a category. I see no problem with it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:46, February 14, 2025 (EST)
-:::I would rather rename the category to "Parasitic creatures" in such a case; the current name for the category alludes to {{wp|Parasitism|literal parasites in nature}}, which are smaller creatures that ''need a host'' to leech off of in order to survive. Flurrie does not need a host, and even then, I would also say that the one HP-draining attack she has does not define her overall as a parasite or even parasitic (Like, we're not defining [[Valentina]] as an ice creature either just because she knows the move [[Blizzard (Super Mario RPG)|Blizzard]]). The name "Parasitic creatures" would also make more sense for the inclusion of Vampires and Viruses as subcategories, for these are not literal parasites either. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:24, February 14, 2025 (EST)
-::::Does "parasite" itself inherently imply "obligate parasite," though? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:44, February 14, 2025 (EST)
-:::::Well, that ''is'' the kind of parasite I'm personally expecting when reading "Category:Parasites" - no metaphors or mosquitoes or anything. Like how we don't consider tanukis as actual dogs, hence why Category:Dogs was renamed to [[:Category:Canines]]. To me, "Parasitic creatures" is broader in that aspect than simply "Parasites". {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:28, February 14, 2025 (EST)