Editing Category talk:Musical themes

What's the difference between this category and [[:Category:Songs|Songs]]? Unless they're both being used improperly, it seems incredibly arbitrary which pages end up in which category. I would assume this category is specifically for recurring themes used in levels, if it weren't for the presence of a few WarioWare songs - but the WarioWare songs are awkwardly split between categories, with the majority of them being in the Songs category instead, making this even more confusing. Then there's the Ground Theme from Super Mario Bros., which for some reason is in both categories. 

While investigating this, the only thing I could think of is that Songs is only for songs that actually have lyrics, in which case the Ground Theme is placed there erroneously. If this is the case, I think it should be explained on the categories since they don't mention a distinction at all, but I really don't see the point of having two separate categories in the first place. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:51, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

:"Musical themes" is meant to be for strictly (not necessarily just recurring) instrumental pieces with no lyrics, while "Songs" is for those with lyrics. I wanted to start two separate categories for the two types but I'm open to any rename or reorganisation suggestions. The reason the Ground Theme is here is because of ''[[Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.)#Mario no Daibōken|Mario no Daibōken]]''. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:52, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

== Suggesting More Recurring Themes ==

I would like to suggest more recuring Themes (as the name suggest), like some of Bowser's theme like "Demon King Koopa" from SMB3 or his theme Super Mario 64 or Koopa road from that same game, heck we should even put the "Yoshi's Island" theme Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island since it's one of Yoshi's recuring themes, and may even the ground theme from SMB2. {{unsigned|Mar E 0}}

== This category needs more Musical Themes ==

here some examples.

*The Super Mario 64 Main Theme (also known as the Bob-omb Battlefield Theme):https://youtu.be/bmP3UHXYi28

*The Isle Delfino Theme:https://youtu.be/KYdRWC6MCgM

*The Good Egg Galaxy Theme:https://youtu.be/LyzlPC43ugU

*Rosalina in the Observatory:https://youtu.be/cM2Gp9r1oeI

*The Gust Garden Galaxy Theme:https://youtu.be/AV9ADodnsoM

*The Luma Theme:https://youtu.be/TPiyOplgtV8

*Enter Bowser Jr.!:https://youtu.be/_RuCy9RYQ4w

*The SMB3 Boss Theme:https://youtu.be/8Tj3-bmDnS8

*Super Mario Bros. 2 Overworld Theme:https://youtu.be/yBISfv-6hfo

*Koopa's Road:https://youtu.be/3WnQBZ6idbU

*Bowser's Theme:https://youtu.be/bq_jS6o3OoY

*The Castle Theme:https://youtu.be/In8WfBgBEis

*Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros. 3):https://youtu.be/Q_saM7I20pY

*Athletic theme (Super Mario Bros. 3):https://youtu.be/2sH-l2xN3gU

*Story Music Box:https://youtu.be/TLBNwhrdG2A

*Flower Garden:https://youtu.be/qekhB_qsCRk

*Yoshi's Song:https://youtu.be/d2c1qLVb2JI

*Bonus Room Blitz:https://youtu.be/zXJtgIwPLTA

*Stickerbush Symphony:https://youtu.be/mdPlcKg-qFs

*The Stonecarving City Theme:https://youtu.be/FzZlrzirY8c

*The Mario Circuit Theme:https://youtu.be/0cWb4DN44WU

*The Super Bell Hill Theme:https://youtu.be/6Y1FIR7x0So {{unsigned|SUPEDUPEmario}}

:They need to be recurring in enough games (see [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Create_pages_with_renditions_of_recognizable_music_themes|this proposal]]) to have articles be made for them. Some of these might fit the rule but the rest have only appeared in a couple of games. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 05:49, January 16, 2023 (EST)

== Chill ==

I would like to suggest Chill from the Dr. Mario series.<ref>https://youtu.be/JkYG-yWWghA</ref> {{unsigned|SUPEDUPEmario}}

== Merge to [[:Category:Songs]] ==

{{TPP}}
I think these two being separate categories causes more trouble than it solves, and the distinction really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have two reasons for this:

First off, '''the line is blurry'''. We have the [[Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.)]], which got a lyrical interpretation once so it's in both categories. Okay... But then there's [[Wario de Mucho]], which has a vocal introduction but no other vocals. Where does that go? Here, I guess. The songs from the modern ''[[Paper Mario (series)|Paper Mario]]'' trilogy have lyrics but no actual vocals. And now, as I'm making the articles for ''[[Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix]]'' songs, edge cases are more and more on my mind. What of [[Always Smiling]], which clearly has lyrics but there's no official record of what they are? What of [[Here We Go!]], which incorporates vocal samples throughout its entire length? What of [[Pipe Pop]], which has a rap break that is clearly vocal but also entirely unintelligible? It's not really a binary state of being for a song to have lyrics.

Second off... '''I don't see the point in the distinction?''' I'm not really sure what reason there is to separate songs into those with lyrics and those without. It may be an important aspect of a song, but is it important enough to declare music without lyrics entirely distinct from music ''with'' lyrics?

Anyway, if this proposal passes, I think we should move this page to "songs" instead of the other way around, since "song" is a much more basic term.

'''Proposer:''' {{user|Ahemtoday}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' June 2, 2023, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} I do not see the point in this tpp. Songs are basically musical compositions that have articulated vocals. Let’s keep those instrumentals in such category. Instrumentals are musical pieces without vocals. Even better, lets rename this catogori into '''Category:Instrumentals'''. Its like “[[Dr. Crygor#WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$!|Dr. Crygor]] Bathroom Jam” which has no vocal atall

===Comments===
@PnnyCrygr, I don't see the purpose of separating pieces of music by whether they have articulated vocals, is the thing. I get that the specific dictionary definition of a "song" includes vocals, but ignoring that the word "song" is frequently used to refer to any piece of music, it doesn't seem like a relevant quality to me. It's... ''a'' distinction one can make, but I don't really see why it's more important than, I don't know, the key a piece of music is in. I can call the resulting merged category "Music" or something of that nature if the more specific definition of "song" proves to be an issue. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:38, May 21, 2023 (EDT)
:That would probably be a better name for this than Songs, actually. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:22, May 21, 2023 (EDT)

I feel like this proposal is already a tad bit weird, considering both of these categories, and [[:Category:In-game music]], seem already to be split off from [[:Category:Music]]. If we merge this category with Category:Songs, then what's the point of separating it from Category:Music, exactly? ''Just'' so Category:In-game music can still be its own thing? {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:49, May 21, 2023 (EDT)
@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 == Merge to [[:Category:Songs]] ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|cancelled}}
+{{TPP}}
 I think these two being separate categories causes more trouble than it solves, and the distinction really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have two reasons for this:
@@ Line 83: / Line 83: @@
 ===Oppose===
 #{{User|PnnyCrygr}} I do not see the point in this tpp. Songs are basically musical compositions that have articulated vocals. Let’s keep those instrumentals in such category. Instrumentals are musical pieces without vocals. Even better, lets rename this catogori into '''Category:Instrumentals'''. Its like “[[Dr. Crygor#WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$!|Dr. Crygor]] Bathroom Jam” which has no vocal atall
-#{{User|7feetunder}} Though the main concern of this proposal appears to be that some tracks fall into a fuzzy gray area between vocal and non-vocal, the issue with the proposed solution is simply the overly broad of the term "song". Your comment below tries to dismiss this as irrelevant, but [[MarioWiki:Good writing#Frequently misused terms]] exists for a reason. "A word is commonly used in casual speech to mean this" does not justify Super Mario Wiki, an encyclopedia, using it to mean that.
-#{{user|MegaBowser64}} This shouldn’t be this complicated. We should rename the categories to create more distinction, with a rule of lyrical music and non-lyrical music, and if there is a song that kind of falls under both, just put it in both! We’re making this hard on ourselves by complicating everything.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 91: / Line 89: @@
 I feel like this proposal is already a tad bit weird, considering both of these categories, and [[:Category:In-game music]], seem already to be split off from [[:Category:Music]]. If we merge this category with Category:Songs, then what's the point of separating it from Category:Music, exactly? ''Just'' so Category:In-game music can still be its own thing? {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:49, May 21, 2023 (EDT)
-:Hm. I didn't take that into account. Category:Music itself also seems quite strangely organized. There's what this proposal is about, but then there's things like [[:Category: Live music]], which is not only not in the category but just linked to ''from'' it, but also mostly encompasses real-world bands and only one live music event. Or [[:Category:In-game music]] clearly being about in-game soundtracks despite the name, and some of the articles in it being name after the option you view them from and others being named in a boilerplate "list of" format. And then [[Paah]], [[Record (WarioWare: D.I.Y.)]], and [[List of Mario references in music]] are in the category as well despite only being ''relevant'' to music and not actually being music themselves. I'm considering cancelling this proposal and putting together a more comprehensive plan for the category. What do y'all think? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:29, May 21, 2023 (EDT)
-@MegaBowser64: I fail to see how putting more songs in both categories and blurring the distinction even more is less complicated than just merging them together. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:11, May 22, 2023 (EDT)
-Yeah, okay, I'm cancelling this and coming at it again with a different proposal later down the line. If only because it seems clear "Music" - a category name already in use - is a better name for the merged category than "Songs". [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:24, May 23, 2023 (EDT)