Editing Category talk:Deceased characters


== Shadow Queen ==
I know that this has been [[Talk:Shadow_Queen#Death|discussed]] before, but I didn't want to necro that, so I am posting this here.

I feel that the Shadow Queen is a possibility for this list. In my interpretation, the game does not make it clear whether she perished or was simply "sealed away" (as her page on this wiki says) but I think that there is evidence on both sides.

Points for her being deceased:
*After her defeat, she seems to explode into a wave of blue energy.
*If the player returns to her crypt after beating the game, her coffin is open but empty.
*Furthermore, the Shadow Queen could not be sealed anywhere in the Palace of Shadow, as Mario by using the Crystal Stars broke the seal which the heroes initially made and the Thousand-Year Door following that was freely able to open by Mario, the Shadow Sirens, and Grodus.
*There is no cutscene in the game's ending in which the protagonists make any special effort to try to seal her away following her defeat, unlike with the four heroes historically (according to Grifty.)
*The tattle log states that "Mario whipped her but for good" implying her defeat was permanent rather than just for another millenium. This suggests a difference between her defeat to the four heroes historically and her later defeat by Mario and co., since in the former case she was able to revive after a millenium.
*During Grifty's tale, it is said that the Koopa succeeded in badly damaging her but then the Goomba thought of using the Crystal Stars to seal the demon at that time. This suggests it may have been possible for the heroes to destroy her spirit. It also could be that they first thought they could destroy her but later realised they couldn't so they decided to seal her.
*She was defeated after leaving Peach's body, suggesting that even her spirit was to an extent vulnerable.
*Unlike Super Paper Mario, this game does not present the concept of parallel universes and was likely written prior to the conception of the Underwhere. As such, the Shadow Queen is unlikely interdimensional, probably eliminating the possibility that she went to another dimension.
*I have not finished Superstar Saga yet, but from this page (and spoilers :( ) I know that Cackletta is thought to be deceased. That story was similar, in that she survived her body being destroyed and then possessed Bowser, but Mario and Luigi were able to destroy her spirit in the final battle. This counters the point concerning Cortez, as it suggests that undead spirits can be destroyed, but of course neither case is entirely comparable to the Shadow Queen.

Points for her being alive:
*I think I remember reading somewhere that the Shadow Queen's soul was "one of pure darkness" and hence the four heroes historically could not destroy it even with the power of the Crystal Stars, which are the only reason Mario and co. could defeat her during the game's events. If this is true, it would counter the point saying that the Koopa was able to injure her etc. though it would still be possible that her second defeat was different.
*Her explosion is not necessarily proof of her death, as Lord Crump survived being blasted into Outer Space following Magnus von Grapple 2.0's defeat, TEC-XX survived the X-Naut fortress exploding altogether, and Sir Grodus survived being attacked by the Shadow Queen with lightning that at first seemed to destroy him entirely.
*Cortez's soul could not be destroyed by Mario and co., implying spirit forms of previously dead characters cannot be vanquished.

This is all I can think of for now. I would be interested in discussing this further. Personally, I am currently leaning towards the Shadow Queen being dead, so I would be open to changing my mind but if I get no replies I will add the Shadow Queen to this list. [[User:MiracleDinner|MiracleDinner]] ([[User talk:MiracleDinner|talk]]) 06:47, August 9, 2019 (EDT)

:I apologise if I didn't organise my proposal correctly, but I haven't had any replies in a month so I will add the Shadow Queen to this list. I would still be open to the discussion though. [[User:MiracleDinner|MiracleDinner]] ([[User talk:MiracleDinner|talk]]) 06:40, September 8, 2019 (EDT)

== Seriously tighten ==

{{TPP}}
I hate having to do proposals like this, but I still feel the need to. This category has a reputation of getting thrown on articles of characters, particularly antagonists, who are simply "killed" at the end of the game they appear in even though the category page states "'''this does not include characters or bosses that are simply "defeated" and not seen again.'''" This may not be fully clear on more major characters, but I still think it's ridiculous when it only matters at the end, so I'm hoping to enforce this category to only be used for subjects that actually are deceased either most or the entire time of their appearance such as [[Scarlette]], and not be used for anyone who is only gone for good at the end of their respective appearance.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal, though I would be interested in a separate category or subcategory for characters who do very clearly die at the end of games.
#{{User|CyonOfGaia}} Per proposal. I'd second Technetium's suggestion here in that case.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} This is already a pretty small category, I don't think a few extra articles is hurting it (from a quick scan, this only seems to apply to Cackletta, Elder Princess Shroob, and Fawful) and the distinction feels a bit arbitrary. I'm against renaming the category since it's not accurate to characters who die mid-game like Bobby and Krow.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Waluigi Time, I think the proposal is slightly blowing this problem out of proportion.

====Comments====
would it be better to retitle the category to something like "Posthumous characters"? i feel like that might help convey the intent better {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 12:02, December 13, 2024 (EST)
:That is at least a possible name if we go with Technetium's idea. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 12:09, December 13, 2024 (EST)
::I just think "posthumous" would only apply to characters deceased the entire game though, not simply a good portion of it. While we could split it on that basis… hmm, I feel the focus of the new subcategory / category would be characters who only die at the very end though. Mainly talking Bobby here. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:14, December 13, 2024 (EST)
@@ Line 26: / Line 26: @@
 == Seriously tighten ==
-{{settled TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|passed|9-1-2|Tighten}}
+{{TPP}}
 I hate having to do proposals like this, but I still feel the need to. This category has a reputation of getting thrown on articles of characters, particularly antagonists, who are simply "killed" at the end of the game they appear in even though the category page states "'''this does not include characters or bosses that are simply "defeated" and not seen again.'''" This may not be fully clear on more major characters, but I still think it's ridiculous when it only matters at the end, so I'm hoping to enforce this category to only be used for subjects that actually are deceased either most or the entire time of their appearance such as [[Scarlette]], and not be used for anyone who is only gone for good at the end of their respective appearance.
-EDIT: Adding another option based on what Technitium has suggested, though the name has yet to be decided.
 '''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br>
 '''Deadline''': December 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT
-====Tighten====
+====Support====
 #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
 #{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal, though I would be interested in a separate category or subcategory for characters who do very clearly die at the end of games.
 #{{User|CyonOfGaia}} Per proposal. I'd second Technetium's suggestion here in that case.
 #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
-#{{User|Mario}} It might be not be a problem currently due to the apparently narrow scope (the small size may be deceiving; [[Ghost T.]], most of the [[Portrait Ghost]]s, [https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_implied_characters#Four_heroes Four heroes], and perhaps more are not listed despite being deceased at encounter), but it's best to at least set a definition for this, and given the discussion here and in prior 2019 for Shadow Queen, this may crop up again in the future.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, and seconding Technetium's own idea.
-#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal. I don't think we can really treat any Mario boss "deaths" as conclusive — basically every boss in the 3D platformers, for instance, has some decisive explosion animation upon being beaten; and it has not stopped the likes of the Whomp King or Petey Piranha from reappearing.
-#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
-#{{User|LittleLum}} Per Ahemtoday. Bowser has been defeated or "killed" many, many times, but he's not considered dead. This should be limited to characters who are explicitly dead/killed off. I also agree with what Technetium said.
-====Make another category for end-game deaths====
-#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Second choice
-====Neither====
+====Oppose====
 #{{User|Waluigi Time}} This is already a pretty small category, I don't think a few extra articles is hurting it (from a quick scan, this only seems to apply to Cackletta, Elder Princess Shroob, and Fawful) and the distinction feels a bit arbitrary. I'm against renaming the category since it's not accurate to characters who die mid-game like Bobby and Krow.
 #{{User|Hewer}} Per Waluigi Time, I think the proposal is slightly blowing this problem out of proportion.
@@ Line 57: / Line 46: @@
 would it be better to retitle the category to something like "Posthumous characters"? i feel like that might help convey the intent better {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 12:02, December 13, 2024 (EST)
 :That is at least a possible name if we go with Technetium's idea. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 12:09, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-::I just think "posthumous" would only apply to characters deceased the entire game though, not simply a good portion of it. While we could split it on that basis… hmm, I feel the focus of the new subcategory / category would be characters who only die at the very end though. Mainly talking Bobby here. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:14, December 13, 2024
+::I just think "posthumous" would only apply to characters deceased the entire game though, not simply a good portion of it. While we could split it on that basis… hmm, I feel the focus of the new subcategory / category would be characters who only die at the very end though. Mainly talking Bobby here. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:14, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-(EST)
-:::I feel the best solution would be to split the category into two. Posthumous characters for those who are dead prior to the story, and don't appear as a ghost or spirit or form of undead during said story (Scarlette et all), and something like 'Permanently Killed/Deceased Characters' for those who clearly die during the story at any point. The latter should be for those who die midway through (like Bobby/Bob-omb) and those who clearly die without the chance of a comeback after their final battle (Cackletta/Fawful/Antasma/Elder Princess Shroob/Antasma/King Olly/Reclusa/etc). --[[User:Cheat-master30|Cheat-master30]] ([[User talk:Cheat-master30|talk]]) 16:04, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-How the hell is this "blowing out of proportion"? {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 16:13, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-:Also the proposal itself isn't even about a rename, but just tightening what characters are allowed on it - many users are clearly confused by how it is currently, myself included. I just suggested the idea of a second category or subcategory being created alongside this one, it's not officially part of the proposal. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:19, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-::I wasn't talking about the rename idea, I was basically just reiterating what Waluigi Time said about how this seems to only be about like three characters in an already not that big category, and that I don't think the fact their deaths are at the end should make them not count. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:47, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-:::I do intend to remove those three as well and it's more than just them, it has been added before on articles like [[Dimentio]], [[King Olly]], [[Princess Shroob]], and more recently [[Reclusa]]. I also don't agree with not having this restriction just because there aren't a lot of articles in the category. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 20:06, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-Thanks for adding the new option! Might be worth adding another one though - characters who only appear deceased vs characters who die at any point in the game, not just the very end (looking at you, Bobby). I've seen users on Discord suggest this. There have also been suggestions to rename the category for the never seen alive characters to "posthumous characters". I imagine "deceased characters" could contain the in-game deaths, and also contain "posthumous characters" as a subcategory. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:36, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-:How does Wrinkly Kong fit into this? She's been both alive for the whole game and dead for the whole game, since she dies off-screen between games. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:50, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-::Or how about the Shadow Queen, since she "dies" both before ''and'' during ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door''—her body is destroyed by the four heroes in the backstory of the game, and then her soul is slain by Mario and co. at the end of the game. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 19:57, December 13, 2024 (EST)
-:::Not to mention [[Krow]], who dies and becomes a ghost on-screen after his first battle in one version of his game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:48, December 13, 2024 (EST)