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| {{TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| I hate having to do proposals like this, but I still feel the need to. This category has a reputation of getting thrown on articles of characters, particularly antagonists, who are simply "killed" at the end of the game they appear in even though the category page states "'''this does not include characters or bosses that are simply "defeated" and not seen again.'''" This may not be fully clear on more major characters, but I still think it's ridiculous when it only matters at the end, so I'm hoping to enforce this category to only be used for subjects that actually are deceased either most or the entire time of their appearance such as [[Scarlette]], and not be used for anyone who is only gone for good at the end of their respective appearance. | | I hate having to do proposals like this, but I still feel the need to. This category has a reputation of getting thrown on articles of characters, particularly antagonists, who are simply "killed" at the end of the game they appear in even though the category page states "'''this does not include characters or bosses that are simply "defeated" and not seen again.'''" This may not be fully clear on more major characters, but I still think it's ridiculous when it only matters at the end, so I'm hoping to enforce this category to only be used for subjects that actually are deceased either most or the entire time of their appearance such as [[Scarlette]], and not be used for anyone who is only gone for good at the end of their respective appearance. |
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| EDIT: Adding another option based on what Technitium has suggested, though the name has yet to be decided.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br> |
| '''Deadline''': December 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline''': December 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT |
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| ====Tighten==== | | ====Support==== |
| #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal | | #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal |
| #{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal, though I would be interested in a separate category or subcategory for characters who do very clearly die at the end of games.
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| #{{User|CyonOfGaia}} Per proposal. I'd second Technetium's suggestion here in that case.
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| #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Mario}} It might be not be a problem currently due to the apparently narrow scope (the small size may be deceiving; [[Ghost T.]], most of the [[Portrait Ghost]]s, [https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_implied_characters#Four_heroes Four heroes], and perhaps more are not listed despite being deceased at encounter), but it's best to at least set a definition for this, and given the discussion here and in prior 2019 for Shadow Queen, this may crop up again in the future.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, and seconding Technetium's own idea.
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| #{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal. I don't think we can really treat any Mario boss "deaths" as conclusive — basically every boss in the 3D platformers, for instance, has some decisive explosion animation upon being beaten; and it has not stopped the likes of the Whomp King or Petey Piranha from reappearing.
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
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| ====Make another category for end-game deaths==== | | ====Oppose==== |
| #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Second choice
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| ====Neither====
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} This is already a pretty small category, I don't think a few extra articles is hurting it (from a quick scan, this only seems to apply to Cackletta, Elder Princess Shroob, and Fawful) and the distinction feels a bit arbitrary. I'm against renaming the category since it's not accurate to characters who die mid-game like Bobby and Krow.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per Waluigi Time, I think the proposal is slightly blowing this problem out of proportion.
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
| would it be better to retitle the category to something like "Posthumous characters"? i feel like that might help convey the intent better {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 12:02, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| :That is at least a possible name if we go with Technetium's idea. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 12:09, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| ::I just think "posthumous" would only apply to characters deceased the entire game though, not simply a good portion of it. While we could split it on that basis… hmm, I feel the focus of the new subcategory / category would be characters who only die at the very end though. Mainly talking Bobby here. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:14, December 13, 2024
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| (EST)
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| :::I feel the best solution would be to split the category into two. Posthumous characters for those who are dead prior to the story, and don't appear as a ghost or spirit or form of undead during said story (Scarlette et all), and something like 'Permanently Killed/Deceased Characters' for those who clearly die during the story at any point. The latter should be for those who die midway through (like Bobby/Bob-omb) and those who clearly die without the chance of a comeback after their final battle (Cackletta/Fawful/Antasma/Elder Princess Shroob/Antasma/King Olly/Reclusa/etc). --[[User:Cheat-master30|Cheat-master30]] ([[User talk:Cheat-master30|talk]]) 16:04, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| How the hell is this "blowing out of proportion"? {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 16:13, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| :Also the proposal itself isn't even about a rename, but just tightening what characters are allowed on it - many users are clearly confused by how it is currently, myself included. I just suggested the idea of a second category or subcategory being created alongside this one, it's not officially part of the proposal. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:19, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| ::I wasn't talking about the rename idea, I was basically just reiterating what Waluigi Time said about how this seems to only be about like three characters in an already not that big category, and that I don't think the fact their deaths are at the end should make them not count. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:47, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| :::I do intend to remove those three as well and it's more than just them, it has been added before on articles like [[Dimentio]], [[King Olly]], [[Princess Shroob]], and more recently [[Reclusa]]. I also don't agree with not having this restriction just because there aren't a lot of articles in the category. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 20:06, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| Thanks for adding the new option! Might be worth adding another one though - characters who only appear deceased vs characters who die at any point in the game, not just the very end (looking at you, Bobby). I've seen users on Discord suggest this. There have also been suggestions to rename the category for the never seen alive characters to "posthumous characters". I imagine "deceased characters" could contain the in-game deaths, and also contain "posthumous characters" as a subcategory. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:36, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| :How does Wrinkly Kong fit into this? She's been both alive for the whole game and dead for the whole game, since she dies off-screen between games. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:50, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| ::Or how about the Shadow Queen, since she "dies" both before ''and'' during ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door''—her body is destroyed by the four heroes in the backstory of the game, and then her soul is slain by Mario and co. at the end of the game. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 19:57, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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| :::Not to mention [[Krow]], who dies and becomes a ghost on-screen after his first battle in one version of his game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:48, December 13, 2024 (EST)
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